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In the latest chapter of the NBA lockout, the Players Union has disbanded and anti-trust suits have been filed. Will these tactics prompt negotiations in better faith from the owners or dragged out court battles that guarantee a canceled season? Along with Ramona Shelburne, we discuss the newest developments.

The chat, she is closed. Just like the arena doors.

As expected, questions a-plenty about the lockout. Should more blame be placed at the feet of the owners or players? Will a canceled season result in any franchises contracted? What effect will this mess have on the legacies of David Stern and Derek Fisher?

Click here and take a gander at what you missed.

As far as CBA stakeouts go, my first was pretty short. Only about two-and-a-half hours in the dim, maroon-hued lobby of the Westin Times Square. That should have been my first sign Monday wasn't going to end well for NBA fans.

Still, like many following along on Twitter or NBA TV, I held out some hope as the seemingly endless stream of mostly large, wholly athletic men, as if exiting some sort of roundball clown car parked just outside the door, filled what had to be the smallest meeting room the hotel had to offer. They formed one row, and another, and still another squeezing and shifting as even stars like Carmelo Anthony seemed stumped on where they'd wedge in. Finally, a full on NBA class photo, all the players were in place. All the while, Billy Hunter worked the room, greeting media members by name, shaking hands. He was smiling.

Kobe Bryant, the only player still wearing his sunglasses, seemed to get absorbed by his colleagues, consciously or not gravitating toward the left corner of the room and the door eventually allowing a quick exit. He wasn't smiling.

Neither was Derek Fisher. Should have been my next tip.

Hunter, first to the podium, didn't wait long to drop the bomb. He quickly thanked the group of athletes behind him, and noted the cross section of talent. Then, "We're here to announce that we've arrived at the conclusion that the collective bargaining process has completely broken down," he said, "and as a result within the last hour we served a notice of disclaimer on Commissioner Stern and the NBA. We plan to disseminate that to all 30 team owners, so they'll know the action we have taken today.

"The players feel that they're not prepared to accept any ultimatums."

And with that, we were introduced to the next chapter of the negotiations. Out with the union leaders, as the union, legally, no longer exists. The NBPA is officially a trade association, no longer with collective bargaining rights but with the ability to create a class action suit against the league, seeking a summary judgment for damages on antitrust grounds. Fisher said the lawyers, Jeffery Kessler and David Boies, would now lead the charge.

Sounds awesome, I thought, as the giant sucking sound of optimism leaving the room whooshed by my ear.

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And that's how the evening ended Thursday in New York. No deal in place, but Derek Fisher and Billy Hunter have something definitive to present to team reps on Monday or Tuesday. In theory, were the deal accepted on both sides -- Stern expressed confidence at his ability to pass it among owners -- we'd be looking at a 72-game season beginning on Dec. 15. If, however, the deal isn't accepted, Stern made clear the next proposal will be less appealing. In other words, BRI at 47 percent, flex/hard salary cap, and everything else the players loathe.

Watching them on television, Fisher and Hunter appeared neither particularly pleased nor particularly angry by the situation. If anything, the overriding mood appeared to be exhaustion, along with resignation. Whether they're resigned to the notion of stomaching a deal admittedly unsatisfactory or resigned to the increased likelihood of a lost season remains to be seen. In the meantime, CBS' Ken Berger reports the decertification push is gaining steam, and we could see a petition with the necessary signatures very soon. Of course, the union doesn't become instantly decertified, but just going there would perhaps regain some footing as negotiations continue.

So what happens from here? At this point, who knows? However, our buddy Sam Amick of Sports Illustrated, who's covered the lockout as vigorously as any scribe, tweeted an interesting observation:

Deals typically done when both sides see something they don't like but could live with. Hunter and Stern both sound that way tonight.

Hopefully, Sam's ability to read body language is on point, because I'm really not up for this tedium dragging into December... or beyond.

Up until now, the NBA lockout has largely existed as more of a conceptual bogeyman than a bully taking lunch money. The focus had always been looming deadlines. In July, when owners officially locked out players, the actual season was too far away to feel scarily pressing. Nobody expected either side to negotiate in earnest until fall. Then that season arrived, followed by a series of stalled conversations and "what ifs." October presented the cancellation of games but they were in November, with all eyes quickly shifting to the high-profile date of Christmas … or the latest possible date in 2012 before the entire season is canceled.

The reality of the lockout and its effect have been a can kicked down the road.

Tuesday, however, that changes.

At 7:30 p.m. PT, fans should have filed into Staples Center, listened to the sweet sounds of Jeffrey Osborne belting out the national anthem, then watched the Lakers do battle against the Oklahoma City to mark the start of their quest for redemption and a 17th banner.

Instead, fans are reduced to watching "Hardwood Classics" on NBA TV. Or taking in old clips of Osborne getting patriotic. (Or "On the Wings of Love," if the purple and gold wound is just too fresh to go there.)

It's always felt as though a safe distance separated negotiations and games on the calender. Even with the non-stop media coverage about a jeopardized season, to a certain degree, this mess hasn't felt any more real than a unicorn or the prospect of a Kardashian-Humphries anniversary.

The lockout has reminded me of being subconsciously aware of a bad dream. Unpleasant and even scary as the dream may be, in the back of your sleeping mind, you anticipate waking up.

But with Tuesday night's canceled season opener, Lakers fans are now officially caught in the nightmare.

I wish I could offer a poignant thought to make sense of this insanity, but, truth be told, I've got nothing. Zip. Bupkis. And honestly, what could our readership possibly want or need to hear from me, anyway? What could I say to make Lakers fans or basketball fans in general feel whole?

I've previously expressed thoughts ranging from optimism to anger to feeling dead inside. Perhaps these posts were moving. Perhaps they bored readers to tears. But the reaction ultimately doesn't matter, because at the end of the day, what you really want to read are my thoughts about the lockout having ended.

Until that moment arrives, talk from writers and pundits is meaningless.

Equally meaningless is talk from David Stern, Adam Silver, Derek Fisher, Billy Hunter, and the like.

I believe I speak for a lot of people when I kindly request player reps and league officials not to step in front of microphones again until a deal has been made. If a meeting ends without a deal, skip the rhetoric and just quietly arrange a time for the next meeting. No news conferences. No players union letters leaked to the media. Go about your business without seeking a camera.

As of Tuesday night, when we should be watching Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant do their thing, nobody cares anymore.

Nobody cares what constitutes a "fair deal" between people divvying up huge amounts of money. Nobody cares whether an owners' vanity-play investment is profitable. And certainly nobody cares about transparent spin from either side.

They just want basketball.

Period.

End of story.

The only way to win a public relations battle, for either side, is to end the lockout. Until then, both sides will continue to lose, and the damage grows with each passing day.

Memo to Stern and Hunter: If you think fans were surly when the lost games were merely left to their imaginations, wait until you see the reaction after the reality check sets in.

As I mentioned on last week's edition of The Forum, based on the general feedback in our chats, via Twitter and on this very blog, fans are equally sick of players and owners when it comes to the lockout. At an event Thursday in Santa Monica attended by Kevin Love, I asked the Timberwolves forward if, even while emphasizing the need to stand firm, he understood why the fans felt this way. His answer didn't beat around the bush.

"It's hard to pick a side when it's billionaires fighting against millionaires. I mean, it's no secret that's what's going on here. I think in any lockout, people are gonna be disheartened in that way, because that is the case."

After Friday's meeting at the Beverly Hilton, I asked Players Union President Derek Fisher about concerns over alienating fans during the lockout. He said the topic is constantly raised, describing fans as "the engine that largely drives our business" and noting "the hard-earned money" plunked down to attend games. In other words, he said "all the right things." Not that I doubt Fish's sincerity, but these are sentiments carefully and safely crafted for public consumption. When I followed up by asking if he understood why fans wouldn't have much sympathy, he initially responded by remaining in politically correct mode.

"Of course. When you look at the unemployment numbers in our country and around the world, when you look at the fact that hard-working families are having a hard time making ends meet, and being able to pay bills and keep their homes, we get those things. We have family members of our own that go through the same things that call us when they're in tough spots, so we feel can relate as much as possible."

From there, however, Fisher dropped whatever pretenses and acknowledged the elephant in the room:

"But relatively speaking, we know where the NBA, where this business, the game of basketball, those opportunities that have been afforded to us that other people can't necessarily relate to, so we get that part of it. So that's not why we're not trying in any way, really, to look for sympathy or empathy from our fans in that regard. We don't need them or want them to feel sorry for us because we'll make less money because we've given up more percentage. That's not what this is about."

Well played, Fish.

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Here are the talkies from Friday's players meeting at the Beverly Hilton. I'm going to post some additional thoughts later, but for the time being, here is a quick rundown.

Washington Wizards big man JaVale McGee left the meeting early for unspecified reasons, but spoke with the media while waiting for his car to be delivered. Asked if the players were standing strong, McGee admitted not everyone is automatically inclined to fight to the bitterest of ends:

"There's definitely some guys in there saying that they're ready to fold. But the majority are ready to stand strong."

Predictably, McGee's words created a stir, and he later took to Twitter denying he made the statement. (As you'll plainly see, he did.) Although truth be told, what McGee said is neither surprising nor even particularly revealing. It's actually to be expected, since not every player has equal skin in this game. Some can afford -- whether monetarily, through stature, or because of superior talent -- to miss more games than others. This reality is something Derek Fisher didn't even attempt to deny. Considering there are only 30 owners, and they can't even agree on what they want, it would be exceptionally naive to presume all 400+ NBA players in mental lockstep.

What seemed to bother Fisher, Mo Evans and others wasn't so much McGee's opinion, but rather that he said it publicly and out of school. As Fisher dryly noted, "The person that spent the least amount of time in the room has no ability to make that statement." At the end of the day, "Fold-Gate" wasn't so much an indictment of the union's solidarity, but rather a reminder of how much both sides value staying on message during this public negotiation. Say what you will about David Stern, but the man is a master at such a task. Even if you think he's lying through his teeth, the man stays in his thematic lane like a man with his hands firmly at 10 and 2.

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Not the news hoped for at the end of Tuesday's meetings in New York, but also not terribly shocking. Even those optimistic about a reasonably normal 2012 season figured the preseason would be toast. Certain things were simply destined to be sacrificed. It is what it is, and as we speak, it ain't pretty. However, since we've got until Monday before the regular season's first two weeks also go the way of the Dodo Bird, I'm going to focus solely on what has been irretrievably lost.

I won't insult our readership with crocodile tears over these canceled contests, insofar as sincere despair goes. I've already acknowledged on The Show Formerly Known As The Triangle my excitement at the prospect of axed pilgrimages to Anaheim, Ontario (California, not Canada), Bakersfield and the like. Were these sentiments tongue in cheek? Sort of, but not really.

If anything unites citizens of L.A. and the surrounding areas, it's a desire to avoid traffic. Doesn't matter how long you've lived in Southern California or how numb you've grown to bumper-to-bumper crawls, when given the chance to avoid such a trek, you jump in it like an opulent mini-giraffe owner. Factor in the lack of suspense these games hold for a veteran team like the Lakers typically low on legitimate roster battles, and I won't fake insincere anticipation for October basketball. (Even if they reduced the number of games against Golden State down to one from the usual 27.)

Just like for the players themselves, the NBA is a long season for the scribes. These are the games that typically feel like, well, work. Blessed as I am to have such a cool job -- or any job nowadays, really -- that's just me being honest.

However, I'm also not jaded enough to miss the passion of the fans in those preseason arenas. Without fail, they're loud, enthusiastic and completely dialed into the action. Moreover, they were also grateful for a night with the purple and gold in their backyards. That it had no bearing on the actual season was irrelevant, and their excitement wasn't dampened by the prospect of watching more Coby Karl than Kobe Bryant. For many, these games marked a once-yearly opportunity to watch the Lakers in person. Maybe regular-season tickets are too expensive. Maybe Staples Center is too far away to make the commute for a 7:30 game on a Monday-Friday work day. (Again, it always comes back to traffic in L.A.) Maybe some just don't have the energy for such a long day, even one involving Lakers basketball.

No matter what the reason, these fans must now wait until 2012 to see the Lakers, regardless of when/if the regular season starts. This will be disappointing, and I sincerely feel for those members of the Laker Nation.

I also feel for anybody who happened to be on a work schedule in those arenas during a game. Those games represented a day's pay now down the porcelain. I don't know if the fairest way to divvy the BRI is a 53-47 split for the players, 53-47 for the owners or 50-50 down the middle. But this much I'm positive about: Even if this contentious issue was solved by awarding one side 100 percent and the other a finger gesture, it's hard to argue either party needs the money as much as a Citizens Bank Arena popcorn vendor. The livelihoods affected by the lockout expand beyond millionaires and billionaires squabbling for the most cheddar. These exhibition games represent lost revenue -- or worse, unpaid bills -- for a working class Joe trying to get by.

The exhibition games have always been completely overshadowed by the embattled CBA issues, and in the grand scheme of things, they're a matter as insignificant as being treated. But for countless unlucky people around L.A., they've now taken on a deeper meaning, and it's a shame to see that happen.

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The league is still in lockout mode, but we're still punching the clock. This week, Andy and I welcome Bomani Jones, host of The Evening Jones and frequent guest of ours, along with just about everything ESPN puts on television, including Jim Rome Is Burning and Around the Horn.

The result? About 60 minutes of basketball and pop culture conversation. Among the high points:

-Bomani starts things off with a cautionary tale about paying close attention to where you pull over to send a text (3:00) before we address the question of Kobe Bryant and Italy (4:30- click here to jump straight to it). How would Kobe-in-Europe play out? Is the risk of injury any higher playing in Serie A than games he'd surely play on this side of the Atlantic -- it's a point on which Andy and I disagree -- and who exactly incurs the risk?

Plus, comments on the old man game of Chris Douglas-Roberts, who would be Kobe's teammate should he sign with Virtus Bologna.

-What about the role of stars in the CBA talks (12:30)? It was the subject of the most recent installment of The Forum, but give it a more thorough airing here. What should guys like Kobe and LeBron James be doing right now? Is it a good idea to have them front and center in the negotiations? My take: The league's elites are in something of a no-win situation. Can the richest stars really tell the rank and file it's worth missing a year of paychecks? Easy for them to say. But if stars are too far from the process, they're criticized for seeming apolitical. It's a tough spot. Best to do what Kobe has done, keeping a low profile while showing solidarity and even offering to float loans to players in need.

Regarding the B.O.K. (Bank of Kobe), who would be the most intimidating guys in the league to owe money to? Stephen Jackson? Tony Allen? And do you really want to face Kobe on the court if you're, say, 25 G's deep with him? Plus, a great Charles Oakley story.

-(25:00) Nic Cage continues to be a gift perpetually giving. A couple weeks back, we noted the fantastical story of an intruder appearing at Cage's bedside wearing only the star's leather jacket and brandishing a Fudgesicle. This week, we explore Cage's purchase of a nine-foot tall pyramid shaped tomb in New Orleans, presumably to eventually serve as his final resting place. (While nobody hopes he gets use of it anytime soon, it's probably safe for Cage to toss in the Oscar he won for Leaving Las Vegas, because that chapter of his career died a while ago.)

-(33:00) The list of nominees for the 2012 induction class at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame was issued this week. Few guests of ours are better versed in music than Bomani, so we take the opportunity to break down the candidates. Are Guns and Roses the Roger Maris of music? Did they release enough good stuff after Appetite for Destruction to truly deserve enshrinement? If Donovan gets in, does he thank Martin Scorsese? Are busts in order for Beastie Boys and Heart?

And what about Rush? Every year they don't get nominated, and every year their fans freak out. Do they have a point? Is there some deep rooted anti-progressive rock bias on the nominating panel (and if so, can you blame them)?

The Triangle is no more. Behold The Forum!!!

It's a brand new title -- Phil Jackson is not walking through that door, after all -- but the presentation and cast of characters remains the same. Unfortunately, the show also continues to revolve around the same topic, which is the lockout. Some matters are just beyond our control, you know?

On Friday, several superstars will reportedly attend meetings and negotiations. Their collective presence hasn't been the norm and some have wondered if this has damaged the players at the bargaining table. Along with 710 ESPN basketball analyst Dave Miller, we debate the question.

As the negotiations between owners and players continue to miss a resolution, we inch closer to the point where games could be missed. Which, by definition, means game checks will be missed. This, in theory, also marks the point where players start to sweat, then eventually crack. After all, there are plenty of dudes still on rookie-wage deals, living at the bottom end of the NBA pay scale or, in the case of the 2012 rookie class, waiting to make a dime playing basketball. A guy like Kobe Bryant won't likely feel any pinch, but an extended offseason puts the screws to those fellas' piggy banks.

Unless, of course, a guy like Kobe Bryant throws them a bone.

From an interview with NBA Players Union Executive Director Billy Hunter, conducted by the L.A. Times' Lance Pugmire:

What role will NBA superstars like Kobe Bryant and LeBron James play as this moves forward?

"They've been deeply involved in the meetings we've had. I know Kobe is intimately involved in interfacing with colleagues and sharing in a pool of revenue to help the others get through this. Kobe has volunteered to do that in the event others need, he and others are prepared to loan money if necessary."

In August, Kobe reportedly delivered a passionate speech during a players meeting about the importance of remaining unified during the lockout. While I certainly commended Kobe for making his presence felt, I also felt the message, while important, was fairly ironic coming from him. After all, Bryant has already made around $200 million in salary alone, which doesn't include what's still remaining on his deal and the oodles of cash he's earned -- and could earn even during a lockout -- in endorsements. Thus, it's easy for Kobe to preach unity. Unless he's been exceptionally irresponsible with his money, he could withstand a lockout without breaking a sweat.

A willingness to loan out some dough, however, dramatically changes my outlook. That's quite literally putting his money where his mouth is, and if enough players with similar checking accounts follow suit, that could make a difference. Perhaps not enough to make an erased season palatable, since Kobe and similarly wealthy players can't be counted on to play benefactor for every (relative) NBA have-not through April. But the act certainly sends a message about a fight perhaps more serious than expected.

Either way, should the lockout last long enough to press Kobe into financial action, it's quite a generous offer.

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You want your lockout update? We got your lockout update! SI.com scribe Sam Amick has provided some of the best CBA coverage around this offseason, and was kind enough to spare us some time. Among the talking points:

PODCAST
Andy and Brian talk with SI.com's Sam Amick for the latest on the NBA labor situation. Plus, a very bizarre tale involving Nicolas Cage, an intruder and a Fudgesicle. Podcast

- Despite the recent rhetoric painting a picture of sides moving further apart, Amick is reasonably confident progress has continued. Not that we're anywhere close to being out of the woods, but as long as backward steps are avoided, that's a positive. At the very least, Amick remains hopeful a 2012 season will take place.

- Amick explains why, as a general rule of thumb, the less forthcoming either side is with specifics from meetings, the better talks are likely going.

- Is the impetus among owners for a hard cap a desire for more parity, a monetarily-driven sticking point, or a little bit of both?

- Amick isn't entirely sure why some powerful agents are pushing for decertification, but if he had to guess, it's a power play. The agents feel more confident in their negotiating skills than Billy Hunter's, and are looking to usurp his power. What Amick does know, however, is decertificaton basically guarantees a large chunk of the season lost, if not the whole kit and kaboodle. It's a nuclear option guaranteeing paperwork, court rooms and tons of red tape, none of which fares well for basketball fans.

- The importance of Derek Fisher as president of the Players Association, in terms of his relationship with players and stature around the league. Amick lays out the praise and criticism commonly lobbed at Fish. For that matter, where does Dr. Jerry Buss fit in as the league's future is being decided?

- Is it problematic role players have been the most prominent faces at the meetings, rather than stars?

- Regular podkast listeners are aware of the K Bros' penchant for anything weird involving Nicolas Cage. Thus, it would be impossible for Brian and I not to explore this recent revelation: Cage once woke up to the startling visual of an intruder wearing nothing but one of his leather jackets and eating a Fudgesicle. The tale is every bit as bizarre as it sounds.

There are three things Lakers fans can always count on: Death, taxes and Ear Candy. Brian and I would like to think we're the most enjoyable item. Among the talking points:

PODCAST
Andy and Brian talk with Lakers forward Matt Barnes about his knee, the Lakers' playoff fizzle and his charity golf tournament. Plus, thoughts on the lockout and "Rise of the Planet of the Apes." Podcast

- After establishing that Trey Johnson will in fact be playing in Italy next season -- as opposed to India -- we discuss why he felt inclined to commit in August to an overseas gig: The lockout. The mood has grown so tense, what with the NBA's recent lawsuit and such, Players Association Executive Director Billy Hunter declared that were he a bettin' man, his money would be on a canceled 2012 season.

Of course, it's important to remember public negotiations rarely use the media to convey sunshine and lollipops. Even if both sides felt confident about avoiding Armageddon, they'd never cop to it, on or off the record.

- Having said that, if you take Hunter at his word, it's not just the owners and players standing to lose a substantial chunk of change. David Stern could be out ten figures, according to recent reports. Considering the league is crying poor, should Stern's salary raise eyebrows? And how would fans feel if, in the event of a missed season, he served as Commish for a Euro league?

- With "Rise of the Planet of the Apes" coming out this weekend, we lament how scientists in movies clearly never watch science fiction movies. Otherwise, they'd have learned by now that creating a super "pick your animal" always leads to disaster!

- Finally, our conversation with Matt Barnes, who joined us earlier that day. Topics include the status of his knee, his thoughts on the Lakers' playoff fizzle and his charity golf tournament. Unfortunately, we spoke right before he slugged an opponent during a San Fran Pro Am, so we couldn't ask about the incident. Hopefully, our interview didn't put him in a bad mood.

The NBA is in "All Lockout, All The Time" mode these days, so The Triangle is following suit. The K Bros and Ramona Shelburne examine who currently has the upper hand between the players and owners, and whether superstars going overseas strengthens or weakens the players' position at the bargaining table.

First things first: It was nice to see Lakers guard and NBPA president Derek Fisher in something other than a business suit, basically the guy's uniform since the Dallas Mavericks keelhauled the Lakers in May. Friday afternoon, clad in gym shorts and a white Derek Fisher Basketball Academy t-shirt (dude so has a hook up on DFBA swag) stepped away from the gym full of very enthusiastic young hoopsters at Roybal Learning Center in downtown L.A. to speak with the media.

Fisher told us his own campers have been grilling him about the end of the lockout -- "I tell them like I tell everybody else," he said, "I’m going to work as hard as I possibly can to make sure basketball starts up again as soon as possible." -- so it's no surprise with talks resuming Monday, we had a few questions as well. Which he answered, as diplomatically as possible (see the video below). To say I was bowled over by Fisher's optimism on the labor front would be ... a lie. He seemed pleased to re-start the process, but conveyed no real expectation of progress. (The one piece of good news came when Fisher said the union still has no plan to de-certify. As we learned with the NFL, de-certification means courtrooms, and courtrooms slow the process considerably.)

Incidentally, the word of the day at his camp was "perseverance." Sounds about right.

On a happier note, Fisher made it pretty clear when basketball eventually resumes, he thinks Kobe Bryant will look daisy-fresh. "He’s doing well. He’s healthy, he’s telling me and I saw it for myself, that his knee is the best it’s been in a long time," Fisher said. "I didn’t believe him, he was telling me he was doing some stuff at his basketball camp and I didn’t believe it, but I saw it a little bit in Manila so I believe it now."

Good to hear Kobe didn't waste his money with that PRP thing, because I'm pretty sure he went out of network for that one.

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