NFC North: Vince Lombardi
As you know by now, ESPN.com is unveiling its 20-member "Any Era" team this week. Detroit Lions defensive tackle Ndamukong Suh was among the first four players named, as we noted earlier Monday.
A number of Hall of Famers made the trip to ESPN headquarters in Bristol to help assemble the team, and ESPN's Front Row blog spoke with former Minnesota Vikings defensive lineman John Randle, as well as receiver James Lofton, about the project and their choices of their "Any Era" coach.
Randle chose Vince Lombardi, while Lofton cited Bud Grant to complete the NFC North circle.
In the video below, Randle said "if I could have, I would have played the same way [Suh] plays." He said Suh has sent a message to the rest of the NFL: "Don't come to my gap, don't come toward me, because this is what is going to happen to you."

A number of Hall of Famers made the trip to ESPN headquarters in Bristol to help assemble the team, and ESPN's Front Row blog spoke with former Minnesota Vikings defensive lineman John Randle, as well as receiver James Lofton, about the project and their choices of their "Any Era" coach.
Randle chose Vince Lombardi, while Lofton cited Bud Grant to complete the NFC North circle.
In the video below, Randle said "if I could have, I would have played the same way [Suh] plays." He said Suh has sent a message to the rest of the NFL: "Don't come to my gap, don't come toward me, because this is what is going to happen to you."

Thanksgiving Feast: 1962 grudge match
November, 21, 2011
11/21/11
4:30
PM ET
By
Kevin Seifert | ESPN.com
The buildup to our NFC North Thanksgiving Feast is going to short, intense and full of distractions. This week would have been busy even without Thursday's matchup between the 10-0 Green Bay Packers and the 7-3 Detroit Lions, so as of this moment I'm declaring complete and total pandemonium in the ring.
As we monitor the Chicago Bears' quarterback transition and the health status of the Minnesota Vikings' star running back, we'll start our Packers-Lions coverage with the story of a rematch nearly 50 years in the making.
If you qualify for AARP membership, or if you watched Bob Costas' weekly essay Sunday night on NBC, you know the Packers and Lions played a Thanksgiving game under similar circumstances in 1962. The Packers entered the game undefeated at 10-0, but the Lions handed them their only loss of the season.
Many people consider the 1962 Packers the best team in franchise history and one of the best in the history of pro football. It had 10 future members of the Hall of Fame, including fullback Jim Taylor, right tackle Forrest Gregg, quarterback Bart Starr, linebacker Ray Nitschke, cornerback Herb Adderley, defensive end Willie Davis, center Jim Ringo, halfback Paul Hornung, safety Willie Wood and defensive tackle Henry Jordan.
But on November 23, 1962, the Lions handed them a decisive 26-14 defeat. They sacked Starr 11 times and intercepted him twice.
Monday, the Lions made several members from that team available via conference call. On that day, recalled Hall of Fame linebacker Joe Schmidt: "We were all out to prove to the world that we were as good or better than Green Bay."
(Sound familiar?)
History tells us the Lions were hardly slouches in those days. They won the NFL title in 1957 and won the Runner-Up game in 1960 and 1961. But after opening the 1962 season 3-0, the Lions lost to the Packers in a game that has gone down in franchise lore.
Jerry Green of the Detroit News recalled that game in detail this season. The short version: Leading 7-6 with less than a minute to play, the Lions called a pass play. Receiver Terry Barr slipped, and Adderley intercepted Milt Plum's pass to set up Hornung's game-winning field goal.
Tempers flared in the post-game locker room, and defensive tackle Roger Brown said Monday that the Lions had a "vendetta" against the Packers in the Thanksgiving rematch. Added Schmidt: "We always felt down deep that we were a better football team."
The Lions were well-versed in Packers' coach Vince Lombardi's offense, and defensive coordinator Don Shula worked with Schmidt to recognize each play.
"They basically ran six or seven plays off a couple different formations," Schmidt said. "By the formation, I could call a slant to where they were going to run. Our defensive line penetrated them so severely that their offensive line lost their poise."
Said Brown: "We were determined to get to Bart Starr. I don't think the German Luftwaffe could have stopped us that day."
The parallels for this year's game are interesting, if not completely relevant. The Packers are again 10-0, of course, and the Lions are quite eager to demonstrate they are, as Schmidt said, just as good. Like the 1962 team, today's Lions are built around a nasty defensive line. I'm not sure if Kyle Vanden Bosch, Ndamukong Suh and company will register 11 sacks Thursday of Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers, but they'll be trying.
It's worth noting that the Packers rebounded from that 1962 loss to finish 13-1 and win the NFL title. The Lions finished 11-3 and made another trip to the Runner-Up game. If nothing else, it's nice to have a game this season that means something to everyone -- the teams, both sets of fans and the playoff race.
[+] Enlarge
AP File PhotoDetroit's Darris McCord, 78, and Roger Brown, 76, sack Green Bay's Bart Starr on Nov. 23, 1962. The Lions dealt Vince Lombardi's Packers their only loss of a championship season, sacking Starr 11 times.
AP File PhotoDetroit's Darris McCord, 78, and Roger Brown, 76, sack Green Bay's Bart Starr on Nov. 23, 1962. The Lions dealt Vince Lombardi's Packers their only loss of a championship season, sacking Starr 11 times.If you qualify for AARP membership, or if you watched Bob Costas' weekly essay Sunday night on NBC, you know the Packers and Lions played a Thanksgiving game under similar circumstances in 1962. The Packers entered the game undefeated at 10-0, but the Lions handed them their only loss of the season.
Many people consider the 1962 Packers the best team in franchise history and one of the best in the history of pro football. It had 10 future members of the Hall of Fame, including fullback Jim Taylor, right tackle Forrest Gregg, quarterback Bart Starr, linebacker Ray Nitschke, cornerback Herb Adderley, defensive end Willie Davis, center Jim Ringo, halfback Paul Hornung, safety Willie Wood and defensive tackle Henry Jordan.
But on November 23, 1962, the Lions handed them a decisive 26-14 defeat. They sacked Starr 11 times and intercepted him twice.
Monday, the Lions made several members from that team available via conference call. On that day, recalled Hall of Fame linebacker Joe Schmidt: "We were all out to prove to the world that we were as good or better than Green Bay."
(Sound familiar?)
History tells us the Lions were hardly slouches in those days. They won the NFL title in 1957 and won the Runner-Up game in 1960 and 1961. But after opening the 1962 season 3-0, the Lions lost to the Packers in a game that has gone down in franchise lore.
Jerry Green of the Detroit News recalled that game in detail this season. The short version: Leading 7-6 with less than a minute to play, the Lions called a pass play. Receiver Terry Barr slipped, and Adderley intercepted Milt Plum's pass to set up Hornung's game-winning field goal.
Tempers flared in the post-game locker room, and defensive tackle Roger Brown said Monday that the Lions had a "vendetta" against the Packers in the Thanksgiving rematch. Added Schmidt: "We always felt down deep that we were a better football team."
The Lions were well-versed in Packers' coach Vince Lombardi's offense, and defensive coordinator Don Shula worked with Schmidt to recognize each play.
"They basically ran six or seven plays off a couple different formations," Schmidt said. "By the formation, I could call a slant to where they were going to run. Our defensive line penetrated them so severely that their offensive line lost their poise."
Said Brown: "We were determined to get to Bart Starr. I don't think the German Luftwaffe could have stopped us that day."
The parallels for this year's game are interesting, if not completely relevant. The Packers are again 10-0, of course, and the Lions are quite eager to demonstrate they are, as Schmidt said, just as good. Like the 1962 team, today's Lions are built around a nasty defensive line. I'm not sure if Kyle Vanden Bosch, Ndamukong Suh and company will register 11 sacks Thursday of Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers, but they'll be trying.
It's worth noting that the Packers rebounded from that 1962 loss to finish 13-1 and win the NFL title. The Lions finished 11-3 and made another trip to the Runner-Up game. If nothing else, it's nice to have a game this season that means something to everyone -- the teams, both sets of fans and the playoff race.
We're Black and Blue All Over:
A one-sentence note buried deep within a St. Paul Pioneer Press column caught some eyes around the NFL. Here's what the Pioneer Press' Charley Walters wrote earlier this week: "Spotted at the W Hotel in downtown Minneapolis on Tuesday night were members of Vikings owner Zygi Wilf's management and stadium development team meeting with LA Live! honcho Tim Leiweke and his AEG team that is considering a stadium for Los Angeles."
Let's see. The Vikings have yet to secure financing for a new stadium, and Leiweke is one of the executives behind the proposed Farmers Insurance Stadium in Los Angeles. There is an obvious connection to be made, but Albert Breer of NFL.com reports the meeting was about developing an entertainment district around the Vikings' proposed stadium in Arden Hills, Minn.
We have no particular reason to view the meeting or that explanation with cynicism. But let's also accept, as we noted this week, that interest in and from Los Angeles will only intensify as long as the Vikings' stadium bill remains stalled. That's not fear-mongering. It's an educated assumption based on the real interest of deep-pocketed businessmen in filling the Los Angeles market.
Continuing around the NFC North:
A one-sentence note buried deep within a St. Paul Pioneer Press column caught some eyes around the NFL. Here's what the Pioneer Press' Charley Walters wrote earlier this week: "Spotted at the W Hotel in downtown Minneapolis on Tuesday night were members of Vikings owner Zygi Wilf's management and stadium development team meeting with LA Live! honcho Tim Leiweke and his AEG team that is considering a stadium for Los Angeles."
Let's see. The Vikings have yet to secure financing for a new stadium, and Leiweke is one of the executives behind the proposed Farmers Insurance Stadium in Los Angeles. There is an obvious connection to be made, but Albert Breer of NFL.com reports the meeting was about developing an entertainment district around the Vikings' proposed stadium in Arden Hills, Minn.
We have no particular reason to view the meeting or that explanation with cynicism. But let's also accept, as we noted this week, that interest in and from Los Angeles will only intensify as long as the Vikings' stadium bill remains stalled. That's not fear-mongering. It's an educated assumption based on the real interest of deep-pocketed businessmen in filling the Los Angeles market.
Continuing around the NFC North:
- At least two Minnesota state legislators doubt that the stadium bill will be addressed in a special session this summer, according to Mike Kaszuba of the Star Tribune.
- Low-round draft picks are at a particular disadvantage during the lockout, writes Tom Pelissero of 1500ESPN.com.
- The Green Bay Packers announced they have received permission from the NFL to hold their Super Bowl ring ceremony June 16 even if the lockout is still on. Otherwise, players would not be allowed to interact with team officials.
- On Thursday, we noted a Green Bay Press-Gazette column that described Gary Martin's efforts to maintain the grave site of Vince Lombardi. At least one other group is now claiming to do the same, according to Pete Dougherty of the Press-Gazette.
- The Detroit Lions hired the son of former Tennessee Titans coach Jeff Fisher to their coaching staff. Brandon Fisher will be a defensive assistant. Jeff Fisher is one of the mentors of Lions coach Jim Schwartz.
- Dave Birkett of the Detroit Free Press follows Lions defensive lineman Andre Fluellen's work in a Kung Fu class this offseason.
- The NFL has ranked the Chicago Bears' victory over the New York Jets last season as the 12th-best game of 2010. Larry Mayer of ChicagoBears.com has more.
We're Black and Blue All Over:
We've all experienced a resurgence of interest in former Green Bay Packers coach Vince Lombardi over the past year. He's been the subject of a Broadway play, an excellent HBO documentary and the trophy named in his honor returned to Green Bay this past winter. We've even read long stories about the house he lived in while coaching the Packers.
On Thursday, Mike Vandermause of the Green Bay Press-Gazette brings us the story of Lombardi's gravesite in New Jersey, which is maintained meticulously by a devoted fan who found it overgrown and neglected when visiting 25 years ago. Gary Martin, now 58, has made the three-hour drive to the cemetery anywhere from four to 12 times per year go ensure the stone is readable and the plants around it are trimmed.
Martin was discovered recently by Lori Keck, who was Lombardi's secretary in Green Bay. She visited the site last Sunday.
The legend grows.
Continuing around the NFC North:
We've all experienced a resurgence of interest in former Green Bay Packers coach Vince Lombardi over the past year. He's been the subject of a Broadway play, an excellent HBO documentary and the trophy named in his honor returned to Green Bay this past winter. We've even read long stories about the house he lived in while coaching the Packers.
On Thursday, Mike Vandermause of the Green Bay Press-Gazette brings us the story of Lombardi's gravesite in New Jersey, which is maintained meticulously by a devoted fan who found it overgrown and neglected when visiting 25 years ago. Gary Martin, now 58, has made the three-hour drive to the cemetery anywhere from four to 12 times per year go ensure the stone is readable and the plants around it are trimmed.
Martin was discovered recently by Lori Keck, who was Lombardi's secretary in Green Bay. She visited the site last Sunday.
Martin: "He's the guy that really brought professional football to the table, and the Super Bowl. I think he was a true leader of men, and I have to respect that. I noticed that nobody ever took care of his grave. So I felt like I was obligated to do that for all the joy he gave me."
The legend grows.
Continuing around the NFC North:
- Chicago Bears cornerback Charles Tillman is concerned that players will have a tough transition when the NFL finally resumes team practices. Via Dan Pompei of the Chicago Tribune: "I don't care who you are, I think the only way to get in football shape is to do football things with the team. I can run like I'm Forrest Gump from one coast to the next, but if I don't do drills that pertain to football, I'm not going to be in football shape. The first day back, even guys who have been working out, it will be a little tough for them just because of the pace we go at. It's so much faster."
- Chicago Bears linebacker Brian Urlacher is supporting the Lincoln's Challenge Academy, a military boot camp for troubled youth. Dave Hinton of the News Gazette has more.
- The mayor of St. Paul, Minn., has proposed an alternate stadium plan for the Minnesota Vikings that would put the stadium in Minneapolis, move the Minnesota Timberwolves to St. Paul's Xcel Center and build a new stadium for the St. Paul Saints. Details from the Star Tribune and St. Paul Pioneer Press.
- The Vikings rejected the idea and plan to continue pursuing their proposal in suburban Arden Hill. The team's statement: "We appreciate Mayor Coleman's thoughts regarding a stadium solution, but we are entirely focused on our partnership with Ramsey County. The Arden Hills plan offers the best site for the State, the team and our fans. We have done what State leaders asked us to do by bringing forward an ideal site, a workable finance plan and significant team and local contributions. Our work with State leaders on stadium legislation is on-going as part of the Special Session discussions."
- Dave Birkett of the Detroit Free Press traces the rise of Detroit Lions draft pick Doug Hogue, a linebacker from Syracuse.
After some time in the shop, the weekend mailbag is baaaaaaacckkkk.
Typing that word reminds me of the way Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers announced his return from a concussion last season. (I'm baaaaaaacckkkk, he texted to ESPNMilwaukee.com's Jason Wilde.)
And it was Rodgers' inability to identify the Superman theme song last week that reminded me of the great opening scene from that 1978 movie by the same name. For me, it bears special significance during the NFL lockout.
Surely you recall the scene. Jor-El is concluding the trial of three notorious Krypton criminals. Rendered guilty, General Zod and his companions (Non and Ursa, duh!) are sentenced to eternity in the Phantom Zone, a glass-like prison that hurtles them screaming into space.
"This is no fantasy," Jor El says. "No careless product of wild imagination. No, my good friends. These indictments that I have brought to you today, specific charges listed herein against the individuals. Their acts of treason, their ultimate aim of sedition. These ... are matters of undeniable fact."
As the NFL lockout continues, can I get any support for the idea of tossing NFL commissioner Roger Goodell and NFL Players Association executive director DeMaurice Smith into the Phantom Zone, where they will be sentenced to negotiate until such time as a new collective bargaining agreement (CBA) is reached? Based on General Zod's look of terror, I'm guessing we would have a new CBA in about seven minutes.
I'm available for further fantastical suggestions via the mailbag, Twitter and Facebook.
On with the mailbag:
Tim of Endwell, New York, writes: Do you think the Chicago Bears are giving Mike Martz too much power? With his influence on demanding a veteran quarterback last year, (Todd Collins) the miss-handling of playing time with Devin Aromashodu, and drafting quarterbacks in back to back years. With Martz's track record with previous teams, it seems like he has a lot of influence even though he might not be here for too long.
Kevin Seifert: I think Tim brought up an excellent discussion point. To an extent, the Bears have treated Martz like the mad but brilliant scientist who just needs a full stock of supplies to make crazy magic.
Of course, we don't know what Martz has been denied. But we do know what he's gotten since the Bears hired him last year. He eventually won a battle not only to sign a veteran backup quarterback last summer, but he was also able to return Todd Collins to No. 2 status even after a disastrous early-season outing against the Carolina Panthers.
Martz presided over the fall of Aromashodu, once among quarterback Jay Cutler's favorite receivers. And yes, the Bears have drafted quarterbacks in each of the past two years -- Dan LeFevour and Nathan Enderle -- even though their depth chart seemed set with Cutler and Caleb Hanie. In April, Bears director of player personnel Tim Ruskell freely admitted that Martz played a key role in scouting Enderle and lobbied for him to be drafted.
Martz "really kind of fell for the kid in terms of the intangibles that he brings," Ruskell said. Ruskell added: "He's done a good job over the years if you look at his track record on guys that maybe weren't at the highest tier. He's done a really good job with finding these guys and developing these guys. So, that certainly weighed into the decision."
Ruskell is referring to Martz's work in St. Louis, first with Kurt Warner and later with Marc Bulger. Does Martz's decade-old success with those players merit the influence he now has over the Bears' personnel decisions at the position?
I see where Tim is coming from. After leaving the Rams in 2005, Martz spent two seasons with the Detroit Lions and one with the San Francisco 49ers. He reportedly turned down a contract extension this offseason, meaning his long-term future with the Bears is uncertain at best. Knowing how transient the NFL coaching landscape is, should any assistant be allowed to choose quarterbacks?
I tend to look at it from another perspective. Martz's skill as an offensive mind and quarterback teacher has never really been questioned. His downfalls in St. Louis, Detroit and San Francisco can be attributed more to personality clashes and philosophical differences. If you hire a coach like Martz and plan for him to be with you for more than a year, it's best to treat him like an asset and hope he can leave a lasting impact on your franchise in a way many other coordinators could not.
This discussion would be more difficult if the Bears were using first and/or second-round draft picks to appease Martz. LeFevour was drafted in the sixth round and Enderle in the fifth. I'm fine with the Bears using a late-round pick on the chance that Martz could accelerate development for a player at the most important position in the game. Even if Cutler's presence means that Enderle will never start for the Bears, it's not unheard of for NFL teams to develop and trade backup quarterbacks for draft picks far exceeding the value of where they were selected.
John of Harrisonburg, Va., wants to take our Flash Points project to the next level: Which NFC North team's Flash Point had the biggest impact on the NFL overall?
Kevin Seifert: My first thought was of Packers Hall of Fame coach Vince Lombardi. But Lombardi's most lasting contribution might have been more cultural and social than it was football-related. Lombardi's "winning is everything" philosophy -- apocryphal or otherwise -- put a national bent into simple wording.
(My personal favorite was his notion that discipline is "character in action," but we'll save that for another lockout/rainy day.)
If you're speaking purely of the impact on football, I think it's hard to look past two of the options on the Bears' ballot.
In 1925, Bears coach George Halas paid Red Grange the sport's first $100,000 contract, ushering in a new level of fan interest into the game.
And in the 1940 NFL Championship Game, Halas introduced the "T-Formation," a look that changed the way the game is played. It encouraged the development of the passing game and ultimately led to the now-traditional two-back set.
For impact on the NFL, I would choose one of those two examples over Lombardi's tenure with the Packers.
SanDiegoLion of Encinitas, Calif., writes: The Detroit Lions are getting some buzz on ESPN outlets on the possibility of them being selected for Hard Knocks. ... I would be shocked if it happened as Mayhew seems like he likes things pretty buttoned up.
Kevin Seifert: I'll admit it. The Lions were the first team I thought of when the Tampa Bay Buccaneers passed on Hard Knocks earlier this week. (Ultimately I think I would want to see the personalities in the Bears' locker room more than anything, but I digress.) Thanks to their draft position in recent years, the Lions have a host of recognizable skill players and are no doubt eager to shed their moribund reputation over the past decade.
But I'm with SanDiegoLion. If it's up to Mayhew, who rarely speaks publicly himself, there is probably not much chance of this happening. But let's not put it all on Mayhew. Lions coach Jim Schwartz is more accessible but is pretty guarded about internal details for competitive reasons.
Of course, the most memorable parts of recent "Hard Knocks" seasons have not been the inside information but the insight into the personalities of coaches and players. I don't think the Lions, or anyone else for that matter, would lose any competitive edge by participating. But I still would be surprised if the Lions agree to do it.
Lyndon of Slave Lake, Alberta, has been out of touch: I could use some good news on the Vikings. Hit me.
Kevin Seifert: As crazy as it sounds, the Vikings have made more progress on their stadium issue in the past month than they did in the 12-plus years combined they've been lobbying.
Their agreement with Ramsey County to build a $1.057 billion stadium isn't perfect, but it's the most workable plan they've hatched yet. How so? For starters, Gov. Mark Dayton is on board and has committed $300 million toward the deal. That's $300 million more than predecessors Tim Pawlenty and Jesse Ventura were willing to offer.
For the first time, they have multiple sites fighting over them. The city of Minneapolis tried to jump ahead of Ramsey County at the last moment and failed, but competition usually has a way of speeding progress.
Finally, most of the opposition to the project has come from legislators who don't want to consider it until after a state budget is finalized. That's a lot better for the Vikings than if they were making the more philosophical objection that public funds shouldn't be used to pay for sports stadiums.
I really don't know if this Ramsey County deal will get approved. But if you're looking for good news, know that the Vikings are closer than they've ever been to success on this vexing issue.
Typing that word reminds me of the way Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers announced his return from a concussion last season. (I'm baaaaaaacckkkk, he texted to ESPNMilwaukee.com's Jason Wilde.)
And it was Rodgers' inability to identify the Superman theme song last week that reminded me of the great opening scene from that 1978 movie by the same name. For me, it bears special significance during the NFL lockout.
Surely you recall the scene. Jor-El is concluding the trial of three notorious Krypton criminals. Rendered guilty, General Zod and his companions (Non and Ursa, duh!) are sentenced to eternity in the Phantom Zone, a glass-like prison that hurtles them screaming into space.
"This is no fantasy," Jor El says. "No careless product of wild imagination. No, my good friends. These indictments that I have brought to you today, specific charges listed herein against the individuals. Their acts of treason, their ultimate aim of sedition. These ... are matters of undeniable fact."
As the NFL lockout continues, can I get any support for the idea of tossing NFL commissioner Roger Goodell and NFL Players Association executive director DeMaurice Smith into the Phantom Zone, where they will be sentenced to negotiate until such time as a new collective bargaining agreement (CBA) is reached? Based on General Zod's look of terror, I'm guessing we would have a new CBA in about seven minutes.
I'm available for further fantastical suggestions via the mailbag, Twitter and Facebook.
On with the mailbag:
Tim of Endwell, New York, writes: Do you think the Chicago Bears are giving Mike Martz too much power? With his influence on demanding a veteran quarterback last year, (Todd Collins) the miss-handling of playing time with Devin Aromashodu, and drafting quarterbacks in back to back years. With Martz's track record with previous teams, it seems like he has a lot of influence even though he might not be here for too long.
Kevin Seifert: I think Tim brought up an excellent discussion point. To an extent, the Bears have treated Martz like the mad but brilliant scientist who just needs a full stock of supplies to make crazy magic.
Of course, we don't know what Martz has been denied. But we do know what he's gotten since the Bears hired him last year. He eventually won a battle not only to sign a veteran backup quarterback last summer, but he was also able to return Todd Collins to No. 2 status even after a disastrous early-season outing against the Carolina Panthers.
Martz presided over the fall of Aromashodu, once among quarterback Jay Cutler's favorite receivers. And yes, the Bears have drafted quarterbacks in each of the past two years -- Dan LeFevour and Nathan Enderle -- even though their depth chart seemed set with Cutler and Caleb Hanie. In April, Bears director of player personnel Tim Ruskell freely admitted that Martz played a key role in scouting Enderle and lobbied for him to be drafted.
Martz "really kind of fell for the kid in terms of the intangibles that he brings," Ruskell said. Ruskell added: "He's done a good job over the years if you look at his track record on guys that maybe weren't at the highest tier. He's done a really good job with finding these guys and developing these guys. So, that certainly weighed into the decision."
Ruskell is referring to Martz's work in St. Louis, first with Kurt Warner and later with Marc Bulger. Does Martz's decade-old success with those players merit the influence he now has over the Bears' personnel decisions at the position?
I see where Tim is coming from. After leaving the Rams in 2005, Martz spent two seasons with the Detroit Lions and one with the San Francisco 49ers. He reportedly turned down a contract extension this offseason, meaning his long-term future with the Bears is uncertain at best. Knowing how transient the NFL coaching landscape is, should any assistant be allowed to choose quarterbacks?
I tend to look at it from another perspective. Martz's skill as an offensive mind and quarterback teacher has never really been questioned. His downfalls in St. Louis, Detroit and San Francisco can be attributed more to personality clashes and philosophical differences. If you hire a coach like Martz and plan for him to be with you for more than a year, it's best to treat him like an asset and hope he can leave a lasting impact on your franchise in a way many other coordinators could not.
This discussion would be more difficult if the Bears were using first and/or second-round draft picks to appease Martz. LeFevour was drafted in the sixth round and Enderle in the fifth. I'm fine with the Bears using a late-round pick on the chance that Martz could accelerate development for a player at the most important position in the game. Even if Cutler's presence means that Enderle will never start for the Bears, it's not unheard of for NFL teams to develop and trade backup quarterbacks for draft picks far exceeding the value of where they were selected.
John of Harrisonburg, Va., wants to take our Flash Points project to the next level: Which NFC North team's Flash Point had the biggest impact on the NFL overall?
Kevin Seifert: My first thought was of Packers Hall of Fame coach Vince Lombardi. But Lombardi's most lasting contribution might have been more cultural and social than it was football-related. Lombardi's "winning is everything" philosophy -- apocryphal or otherwise -- put a national bent into simple wording.
(My personal favorite was his notion that discipline is "character in action," but we'll save that for another lockout/rainy day.)
If you're speaking purely of the impact on football, I think it's hard to look past two of the options on the Bears' ballot.
In 1925, Bears coach George Halas paid Red Grange the sport's first $100,000 contract, ushering in a new level of fan interest into the game.
And in the 1940 NFL Championship Game, Halas introduced the "T-Formation," a look that changed the way the game is played. It encouraged the development of the passing game and ultimately led to the now-traditional two-back set.
For impact on the NFL, I would choose one of those two examples over Lombardi's tenure with the Packers.
SanDiegoLion of Encinitas, Calif., writes: The Detroit Lions are getting some buzz on ESPN outlets on the possibility of them being selected for Hard Knocks. ... I would be shocked if it happened as Mayhew seems like he likes things pretty buttoned up.
Kevin Seifert: I'll admit it. The Lions were the first team I thought of when the Tampa Bay Buccaneers passed on Hard Knocks earlier this week. (Ultimately I think I would want to see the personalities in the Bears' locker room more than anything, but I digress.) Thanks to their draft position in recent years, the Lions have a host of recognizable skill players and are no doubt eager to shed their moribund reputation over the past decade.
But I'm with SanDiegoLion. If it's up to Mayhew, who rarely speaks publicly himself, there is probably not much chance of this happening. But let's not put it all on Mayhew. Lions coach Jim Schwartz is more accessible but is pretty guarded about internal details for competitive reasons.
Of course, the most memorable parts of recent "Hard Knocks" seasons have not been the inside information but the insight into the personalities of coaches and players. I don't think the Lions, or anyone else for that matter, would lose any competitive edge by participating. But I still would be surprised if the Lions agree to do it.
Lyndon of Slave Lake, Alberta, has been out of touch: I could use some good news on the Vikings. Hit me.
Kevin Seifert: As crazy as it sounds, the Vikings have made more progress on their stadium issue in the past month than they did in the 12-plus years combined they've been lobbying.
Their agreement with Ramsey County to build a $1.057 billion stadium isn't perfect, but it's the most workable plan they've hatched yet. How so? For starters, Gov. Mark Dayton is on board and has committed $300 million toward the deal. That's $300 million more than predecessors Tim Pawlenty and Jesse Ventura were willing to offer.
For the first time, they have multiple sites fighting over them. The city of Minneapolis tried to jump ahead of Ramsey County at the last moment and failed, but competition usually has a way of speeding progress.
Finally, most of the opposition to the project has come from legislators who don't want to consider it until after a state budget is finalized. That's a lot better for the Vikings than if they were making the more philosophical objection that public funds shouldn't be used to pay for sports stadiums.
I really don't know if this Ramsey County deal will get approved. But if you're looking for good news, know that the Vikings are closer than they've ever been to success on this vexing issue.
Flash Points: Franchise-turning events
May, 17, 2011
5/17/11
12:30
PM ET
By
Kevin Seifert | ESPN.com
Examining the most crucial event in the history of every team in the division.
The most important moment in Green Bay Packers history was nearly scuttled by an unlikely source. Shortly after Vince Lombardi accepted the Packers' job as head coach/general manager in 1959, his wife was "distraught," according to historian David Maraniss.
Marie Lombardi approached New York Giants owner Wellington Mara, who owned Lombardi's contract as a Giants assistant coach. As Maraniss writes in "When Pride Still Mattered," Marie begged Mara to block her husband's move.
Mara declined, knowing Vince was ready to be a head coach. Marie stood by her husband. And the rest, as they say, is Packers history.
Lombardi's arrival in Green Bay was your overwhelming choice as the Packers' Flash Point, and it received a higher percentage of votes (69 percent) than any individual event offered in last week's series of polls. Lombardi won his first NFL title in 1961 and collected four more before giving up the job in 1967, building an unmatched legend and painting the franchise in gold mystique for generations to come.
Some of you made impassioned arguments for Curly Lambeau's push to sell stock and make the franchise a non-profit organization in 1923, a short-term fundraising effort that embedded a structure still in operation today. "How can it not be Curly?" wrote mallow420. "If Curly doesn't save the Packers then there's no Packers to hire Lombardi."
Hadessniper allowed that "Lambeau making the Packers public is more important for the Packers, as without that there is simply no way Green Bay keeps a team." But, wrote hadessniper, "Lombardi is probably more important for the NFL as a whole. The NFL was gaining popularity, but Lombardi gave the game a legend. Without Lombardi the NFL wouldn't be what it is today."
Timarquardt was more direct: "Get back to me when someone else wins five championships in seven years. That's Lombardi's legacy and with all due credit to Curly, he did it when there was a bunch of good teams. Curly saved the franchise, obviously important, but without those Lombardi years the team never would have had the following through the dark years of the '70s and '80s to be successful."
What's fascinating to me is that Lambeau actually wanted Lombardi's job in 1959, a decade after an internal power struggle led to Lambeau's ouster. As Maraniss recounts, Lambeau flew to Green Bay during the interview process and launched a campaign to capture at least the general manager position that Lombardi ultimately filled. Dominic Olejniczak, president of the Packers board of directors, resisted the urge to hire him despite heavy public support.
The Flash Point mandate was less clear for the NFC North's other three teams. Let's sort through them in alphabetical order:
BEARS: A hero of 1985
About half of you voted for the arrival of defensive coordinator Buddy Ryan, the architect of the 46 defense that led the Bears to a championship in 1985.
Ronald C. Modra/Sports Imagery/Getty ImagesBuddy Ryan's 46 defense formed the identity of the 1985 Super Bowl-winning Bears team.Lewie21982 was livid and wrote: "Who are these people voting?? Are you just idiot baby boomers, hippies, or the '80s mullet crowd??? I was born in the '80s and clearly know the decision of drafting Red Grange or instituting the T-Formation was the most significant thing the Bears have ever done. The Bears have nine championships and eight of them were before Buddy Ryan, Mike Ditka, or the 46 defense ever came around!!"
I hear ya, Lewie21982. Red Grange made the Bears an early heavy hitter in pro football, and George Halas' schematic innovations led to the golden age in franchise history -- four world titles in seven years between 1940-46. But I understand where the baby boomers, hippies and mulleteers were going.
The 1985 Bears were the best team in franchise history and one of the most dominant of the NFL's post-merger era. With all due respect to Ditka and running back Walter Payton, Ryan's 46 defense was the biggest reason. It's impossible for a single moment to spawn something so impactful, and I heard a suggestion for ex-general manager Jim Finks acquiring many of that team's stars. But without Buddy Ryan, the 46 defense doesn't exist and the 1985 Bears as they were known never come to be.
LIONS: Forgetting yesteryear
The Detroit Lions' Flash Point vote got more action than any team in the division, garnering more than 53,000 votes. On that, we can agree.
But did the decision to draft running back Barry Sanders have more impact than any other event in franchise history? About 60 percent of you thought so, although the comments reflected a wider disparity.
I'm not on board, and neither was j_sleik83. We agree that quarterback Bobby Layne brought the Lions what Sanders never did. J_sleik83: "Bobby Layne in combination with the Hall of Fame defensive backfield the Lions had during the entirety of the '50s IS their defining era. Barry Sanders didn't lead them to the promised land, Layne did."
I mean no disrespect to Sanders, who forged a Hall of Fame career on some otherwise undermanned teams. But with Layne behind center, the Lions won NFL titles in 1952 and 1953. He contributed to a third in 1957, and upon his subsequent departure, Layne placed a (possibly apocryphal) 50-year curse on the franchise. (For that reason, DWargs thought trading Layne away is the defining moment in franchise history: "Haven't gotten close to a championship since.")
Several of you pointed to the ownership of the Ford family as the primary reason for that dubious run. Regardless, I understand that Lions history is defined more by failure than success. But on an otherwise desultory landscape, the Lions once had a brilliant run. Bobby Layne was the single biggest reason why.
VIKINGS: Varied opinions
I did either an excellent or terrible job of choosing options for the Minnesota Vikings' Flash Point: All four possibilities received between 19 and 32 percent of the vote. Assembling the "Purple People Eaters" had the highest percentage, but its total was hardly a mandate among the 38,000 or so votes cast.
Scanning the comments, it was clear that you agreed on only one thing: A Vikings Flash Point needed to reflect a long history of dysfunction.
Even looking beyond the obvious, Ymacdaddy offered this litany: "Herschel Walker, Metrodome [collapse], Gary Anderson, Dimitrius Underwood, too many in huddle, big-game chokers, etc. How about Darrin Nelson before Marcus Allen?"
The 1989 Walker trade, in which the Vikings ultimately gave up five players and six draft choices, received multiple mentions. So did Gary Anderson's shocking field goal miss in the 1998 NFC Championship Game. BuckeyeVikes80 is "still reeling from that 12 years later."
Dbatten1 noted Dallas Cowboys quarterback Roger Staubach's Hail Mary pass to Drew "Push" Pearson in the 1975 playoffs. TampaPacMan's moment was the final play of the 2003 season, when the Vikings lost the NFC North title and a playoff berth by giving up an improbable touchdown to Arizona Cardinals receiver Nathan Poole. It was "the signature moment in a franchise history littered with failures!" wrote TampaPacMan.
If it were up to me, Bud Grant's arrival would rank as the most significant moment in Vikings history. Many of us would agree that Grant has made the single-biggest impact in this franchise's 50 years. But what do I know? I just work here.

The most important moment in Green Bay Packers history was nearly scuttled by an unlikely source. Shortly after Vince Lombardi accepted the Packers' job as head coach/general manager in 1959, his wife was "distraught," according to historian David Maraniss.
Marie Lombardi approached New York Giants owner Wellington Mara, who owned Lombardi's contract as a Giants assistant coach. As Maraniss writes in "When Pride Still Mattered," Marie begged Mara to block her husband's move.
[+] Enlarge
AP PhotoCoach Vince Lombardi (upper right) led the Packers to five championship wins in seven seasons.
AP PhotoCoach Vince Lombardi (upper right) led the Packers to five championship wins in seven seasons.Lombardi's arrival in Green Bay was your overwhelming choice as the Packers' Flash Point, and it received a higher percentage of votes (69 percent) than any individual event offered in last week's series of polls. Lombardi won his first NFL title in 1961 and collected four more before giving up the job in 1967, building an unmatched legend and painting the franchise in gold mystique for generations to come.
Some of you made impassioned arguments for Curly Lambeau's push to sell stock and make the franchise a non-profit organization in 1923, a short-term fundraising effort that embedded a structure still in operation today. "How can it not be Curly?" wrote mallow420. "If Curly doesn't save the Packers then there's no Packers to hire Lombardi."
Hadessniper allowed that "Lambeau making the Packers public is more important for the Packers, as without that there is simply no way Green Bay keeps a team." But, wrote hadessniper, "Lombardi is probably more important for the NFL as a whole. The NFL was gaining popularity, but Lombardi gave the game a legend. Without Lombardi the NFL wouldn't be what it is today."
Timarquardt was more direct: "Get back to me when someone else wins five championships in seven years. That's Lombardi's legacy and with all due credit to Curly, he did it when there was a bunch of good teams. Curly saved the franchise, obviously important, but without those Lombardi years the team never would have had the following through the dark years of the '70s and '80s to be successful."
What's fascinating to me is that Lambeau actually wanted Lombardi's job in 1959, a decade after an internal power struggle led to Lambeau's ouster. As Maraniss recounts, Lambeau flew to Green Bay during the interview process and launched a campaign to capture at least the general manager position that Lombardi ultimately filled. Dominic Olejniczak, president of the Packers board of directors, resisted the urge to hire him despite heavy public support.
The Flash Point mandate was less clear for the NFC North's other three teams. Let's sort through them in alphabetical order:
BEARS: A hero of 1985
About half of you voted for the arrival of defensive coordinator Buddy Ryan, the architect of the 46 defense that led the Bears to a championship in 1985.
Ronald C. Modra/Sports Imagery/Getty ImagesBuddy Ryan's 46 defense formed the identity of the 1985 Super Bowl-winning Bears team.I hear ya, Lewie21982. Red Grange made the Bears an early heavy hitter in pro football, and George Halas' schematic innovations led to the golden age in franchise history -- four world titles in seven years between 1940-46. But I understand where the baby boomers, hippies and mulleteers were going.
The 1985 Bears were the best team in franchise history and one of the most dominant of the NFL's post-merger era. With all due respect to Ditka and running back Walter Payton, Ryan's 46 defense was the biggest reason. It's impossible for a single moment to spawn something so impactful, and I heard a suggestion for ex-general manager Jim Finks acquiring many of that team's stars. But without Buddy Ryan, the 46 defense doesn't exist and the 1985 Bears as they were known never come to be.
LIONS: Forgetting yesteryear
The Detroit Lions' Flash Point vote got more action than any team in the division, garnering more than 53,000 votes. On that, we can agree.
[+] Enlarge
JEFF KOWALSKY/AFP/Getty ImagesBarry Sanders had a Hall of Fame career but couldn't get the Lions a championship.
JEFF KOWALSKY/AFP/Getty ImagesBarry Sanders had a Hall of Fame career but couldn't get the Lions a championship.I'm not on board, and neither was j_sleik83. We agree that quarterback Bobby Layne brought the Lions what Sanders never did. J_sleik83: "Bobby Layne in combination with the Hall of Fame defensive backfield the Lions had during the entirety of the '50s IS their defining era. Barry Sanders didn't lead them to the promised land, Layne did."
I mean no disrespect to Sanders, who forged a Hall of Fame career on some otherwise undermanned teams. But with Layne behind center, the Lions won NFL titles in 1952 and 1953. He contributed to a third in 1957, and upon his subsequent departure, Layne placed a (possibly apocryphal) 50-year curse on the franchise. (For that reason, DWargs thought trading Layne away is the defining moment in franchise history: "Haven't gotten close to a championship since.")
Several of you pointed to the ownership of the Ford family as the primary reason for that dubious run. Regardless, I understand that Lions history is defined more by failure than success. But on an otherwise desultory landscape, the Lions once had a brilliant run. Bobby Layne was the single biggest reason why.
VIKINGS: Varied opinions
I did either an excellent or terrible job of choosing options for the Minnesota Vikings' Flash Point: All four possibilities received between 19 and 32 percent of the vote. Assembling the "Purple People Eaters" had the highest percentage, but its total was hardly a mandate among the 38,000 or so votes cast.
[+] Enlarge
AP Photo/Jack ThornellBud Grant won 152 games as coach over 18 seasons.
AP Photo/Jack ThornellBud Grant won 152 games as coach over 18 seasons.Even looking beyond the obvious, Ymacdaddy offered this litany: "Herschel Walker, Metrodome [collapse], Gary Anderson, Dimitrius Underwood, too many in huddle, big-game chokers, etc. How about Darrin Nelson before Marcus Allen?"
The 1989 Walker trade, in which the Vikings ultimately gave up five players and six draft choices, received multiple mentions. So did Gary Anderson's shocking field goal miss in the 1998 NFC Championship Game. BuckeyeVikes80 is "still reeling from that 12 years later."
Dbatten1 noted Dallas Cowboys quarterback Roger Staubach's Hail Mary pass to Drew "Push" Pearson in the 1975 playoffs. TampaPacMan's moment was the final play of the 2003 season, when the Vikings lost the NFC North title and a playoff berth by giving up an improbable touchdown to Arizona Cardinals receiver Nathan Poole. It was "the signature moment in a franchise history littered with failures!" wrote TampaPacMan.
If it were up to me, Bud Grant's arrival would rank as the most significant moment in Vikings history. Many of us would agree that Grant has made the single-biggest impact in this franchise's 50 years. But what do I know? I just work here.

What key event significantly changed the fortunes of the Packers -- for better or worse? Give us your take and we'll give you our definitive moment on May 17.
There might not be an NFL team with a richer history than the Green Bay Packers, a unique franchise with 13 championships to its name. We're only brushing the surface.
The Packers began play in 1919 but soon fell on financial hard times. Ultimately, team founder Curly Lambeau arrived on a business model that has prevailed ever since. In 1923, he convinced local businessmen to buy stock in the company and made it a non-profit organization. (Historians might also note that the NFL's revenue-sharing model has had at least an equal role in the Packers' survival.)
The Packers hadn't had a winning season in 12 years when they hired new coach Vince Lombardi in 1959. What followed was one of the most remarkable and memorable runs by a professional sports team in any league.
Lombardi's departure sent the Packers spiraling for decades, and it wasn't until they hired general manager Ron Wolf in 1991 that their fortunes changed. Wolf made two huge acquisitions within weeks of each other, hiring coach Mike Holmgren on Jan. 11, 1992, and trading for quarterback Brett Favre on Feb. 10, 1992.
Favre's career falls under the Wolf category for the purposes of this project. At the same time, it's hard to imagine the Packers winning a Super Bowl within three years of his departure had they not drafted his replacement in 2005. Aaron Rodgers spent three years developing behind Favre and then was the MVP of Super Bowl XLV last season.
Use the module in this post to cast your vote. If you vote Other, give us your suggestion in the comments area below.
There might not be an NFL team with a richer history than the Green Bay Packers, a unique franchise with 13 championships to its name. We're only brushing the surface.
The Packers began play in 1919 but soon fell on financial hard times. Ultimately, team founder Curly Lambeau arrived on a business model that has prevailed ever since. In 1923, he convinced local businessmen to buy stock in the company and made it a non-profit organization. (Historians might also note that the NFL's revenue-sharing model has had at least an equal role in the Packers' survival.)
The Packers hadn't had a winning season in 12 years when they hired new coach Vince Lombardi in 1959. What followed was one of the most remarkable and memorable runs by a professional sports team in any league.
Lombardi's departure sent the Packers spiraling for decades, and it wasn't until they hired general manager Ron Wolf in 1991 that their fortunes changed. Wolf made two huge acquisitions within weeks of each other, hiring coach Mike Holmgren on Jan. 11, 1992, and trading for quarterback Brett Favre on Feb. 10, 1992.
Favre's career falls under the Wolf category for the purposes of this project. At the same time, it's hard to imagine the Packers winning a Super Bowl within three years of his departure had they not drafted his replacement in 2005. Aaron Rodgers spent three years developing behind Favre and then was the MVP of Super Bowl XLV last season.
Use the module in this post to cast your vote. If you vote Other, give us your suggestion in the comments area below.
XLV: 'We feel this game is about us'
February, 6, 2011
2/06/11
3:34
PM ET
By
Kevin Seifert | ESPN.com
ARLINGTON, Texas -- Ever wonder what an NFL coach says to his players in the hours before the Super Bowl? Green Bay Packers coach Mike McCarthy had a succinct message Sunday morning, according to ESPN's Ed Werder. It revolved around the theme of "One."
As in: One team. One goal. One game. One trophy. One name on it. One place where it needs to be returned.
Indeed, McCarthy has spoken often about bringing the Lombardi Trophy home; the Packers won the first two Super Bowls and the trophy was renamed in honor of coach Vince Lombardi shortly after his death in 1970.
On Saturday, McCarthy continued his brash public stance on the Packers' chances to win this game. He told Werder: "We feel this game is about us. If we play up to our standard or above it, we will be successful, and I have full confidence we will be taking the trophy home.''
We're under the three hour mark!
As in: One team. One goal. One game. One trophy. One name on it. One place where it needs to be returned.
Indeed, McCarthy has spoken often about bringing the Lombardi Trophy home; the Packers won the first two Super Bowls and the trophy was renamed in honor of coach Vince Lombardi shortly after his death in 1970.
On Saturday, McCarthy continued his brash public stance on the Packers' chances to win this game. He told Werder: "We feel this game is about us. If we play up to our standard or above it, we will be successful, and I have full confidence we will be taking the trophy home.''
We're under the three hour mark!
» Super Bowl XLV Final Word: Steelers | Packers
Five nuggets of knowledge about Super Bowl XLV:
The stakes: The Green Bay Packers' mantra the past few weeks has been to "bring the Lombardi Trophy home." The franchise won the first two Super Bowls in history, and the trophy was re-named in honor of coach Vince Lombardi when he died of cancer in 1970. Overall, the Packers will be seeking their fourth Super Bowl victory (in five appearances) and their 13th world championship dating back to 1929. Coach Mike McCarthy has invoked Lombardi often and recently said his favorite Lombardi maxim was the idea of "chasing perfection and catching excellence on the way." Here's a Lombardi quote that applies squarely to this game: "I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle -- victorious."
Mobile QBs: Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers and Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger are two nimble and crafty scramblers who use their instincts to elude the rush and then take off faster than most defenses expect. Roethlisberger is bigger and more physical than Rodgers and has a better chance of muscling away from defensive linemen; Rodgers is quicker. Both will be facing top-ranked defenses and elite pass-rushers -- Steelers linebacker James Harrison has been especially vocal this week -- and their ability to buy extra time will be a crucial fulcrum of this game. According to ESPN Stats & Information, Roethlisberger has averaged 9.4 yards per scramble this season, including the playoffs. Rodgers has averaged 8.7 yards. They have five touchdowns between them on such runs.
Fast track: Over the past two weeks, we have discussed numerous angles of this game. You can access them through this handy "XLV" filter. But a few merit repeating. The first is the undeniable success over time the Packers' offense has had in indoor stadiums. As we noted, the Packers have used their speed and precision to average nearly 32 points in 12 such games since 2008, including playoffs. Rodgers has thrown 25 touchdown passes and six interceptions over that span, and the Packers are drawing deep confidence from their past performances. For what it's worth, the Steelers gave up 305 passing yards to New Orleans Saints quarterback Drew Brees in their only indoor game during the regular season, a 20-10 loss.
Run discipline: Packers rookie running back James Starks has had one breakthrough game in the playoffs, rushing for 123 yards in the wild-card round against the Philadelphia Eagles, but his impact has extended beyond that. As we discussed last week, McCarthy has trusted Starks for 20 or more carries in each playoff game, an important factor in balancing the Packers' offense and ensuring the integrity of their play-action game. The Packers can win even if Starks doesn't reach a high yardage total, but their chances will decrease if his rushing attempts don't match his previous numbers.
The bottom line: We've spent all season trying to come up with facts and figures to analyze and foreshadow what might happen on game day. So as we approach the biggest and last game of the NFC North season, let's close with another Lombardi quote: "Football is blocking and tackling. Everything else is mythology."
Five nuggets of knowledge about Super Bowl XLV:
[+] Enlarge
AP PhotoCommissioner Pete Rozelle, left, presents the trophy to Green Bay coach Vince Lombardi after the Packers beat the Chiefs in the first Super Bowl.
AP PhotoCommissioner Pete Rozelle, left, presents the trophy to Green Bay coach Vince Lombardi after the Packers beat the Chiefs in the first Super Bowl.Mobile QBs: Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers and Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger are two nimble and crafty scramblers who use their instincts to elude the rush and then take off faster than most defenses expect. Roethlisberger is bigger and more physical than Rodgers and has a better chance of muscling away from defensive linemen; Rodgers is quicker. Both will be facing top-ranked defenses and elite pass-rushers -- Steelers linebacker James Harrison has been especially vocal this week -- and their ability to buy extra time will be a crucial fulcrum of this game. According to ESPN Stats & Information, Roethlisberger has averaged 9.4 yards per scramble this season, including the playoffs. Rodgers has averaged 8.7 yards. They have five touchdowns between them on such runs.
Fast track: Over the past two weeks, we have discussed numerous angles of this game. You can access them through this handy "XLV" filter. But a few merit repeating. The first is the undeniable success over time the Packers' offense has had in indoor stadiums. As we noted, the Packers have used their speed and precision to average nearly 32 points in 12 such games since 2008, including playoffs. Rodgers has thrown 25 touchdown passes and six interceptions over that span, and the Packers are drawing deep confidence from their past performances. For what it's worth, the Steelers gave up 305 passing yards to New Orleans Saints quarterback Drew Brees in their only indoor game during the regular season, a 20-10 loss.
Run discipline: Packers rookie running back James Starks has had one breakthrough game in the playoffs, rushing for 123 yards in the wild-card round against the Philadelphia Eagles, but his impact has extended beyond that. As we discussed last week, McCarthy has trusted Starks for 20 or more carries in each playoff game, an important factor in balancing the Packers' offense and ensuring the integrity of their play-action game. The Packers can win even if Starks doesn't reach a high yardage total, but their chances will decrease if his rushing attempts don't match his previous numbers.
The bottom line: We've spent all season trying to come up with facts and figures to analyze and foreshadow what might happen on game day. So as we approach the biggest and last game of the NFC North season, let's close with another Lombardi quote: "Football is blocking and tackling. Everything else is mythology."
BBAO: The life of Vince Lombardi's house
February, 3, 2011
2/03/11
8:00
AM ET
By
Kevin Seifert | ESPN.com
We're Black and Blue All Over:
Normally I like to provide a snippet of any ESPN.com feature I bring to your attention. But Wright Thompson's profile of, yes, a very special house can't be excerpted. It's something you need to read in full, a moving tome to Vince Lombardi and the home his family lived in during his time in Green Bay -- one he sold in 1969 and is still visited by devoted followers to this day.
Members of the family who bought the house from Lombardi still live there. John Madden once offered to buy it.
Thompson has a rare way with words, and you'll feel the full range of emotions when you read it. You've got time. We still have almost four full days until Super Bowl XLV.
Continuing around the NFC North:
Normally I like to provide a snippet of any ESPN.com feature I bring to your attention. But Wright Thompson's profile of, yes, a very special house can't be excerpted. It's something you need to read in full, a moving tome to Vince Lombardi and the home his family lived in during his time in Green Bay -- one he sold in 1969 and is still visited by devoted followers to this day.
Members of the family who bought the house from Lombardi still live there. John Madden once offered to buy it.
Thompson has a rare way with words, and you'll feel the full range of emotions when you read it. You've got time. We still have almost four full days until Super Bowl XLV.
Continuing around the NFC North:
- Greg Bishop of The New York Times speaks with former Packers general manager Ron Wolf about current general manager Ted Thompson. Wolf: "The fact that he's been able to cut and paste a championship team together, considering all the players they lost, is remarkable. These days, you just don't see that."
- Bob McGinn of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel: "Pittsburgh's Troy Polamalu and Green Bay's Charles Woodson see a different game and have the nerve to act on what they see. Not only do their brains and their boldness stamp them as unique players, the combination also won the Associated Press Defensive Player of the Year award for Woodson in 2009 and for Polamalu in 2010. Each has the cunning, the vast experience and the athletic gifts to emerge as the most valuable player in the 45th Super Bowl on Sunday. By the same token, each could be the goat."
- The Packers are hoping to keep their talented defensive coaching staff together this offseason, writes Rob Demovsky of the Green Bay Press-Gazette.
- Packers defensive lineman Cullen Jenkins hasn't heard from his father in over a month, according to Jason Wilde of ESPNMilwaukee.com.
- The Chicago Bears will have a decision to make on quarterback Caleb Hanie this offseason, writes Jeff Dickerson of ESPNChicago.com.
- Bears tailback Matt Forte deserves a new contract, according to Michael C. Wright of ESPNChicago.com.
- Bears quarterback Jay Cutler took a pain-killing shot at halftime of the NFC Championship Game in an attempt to continue playing on a knee injury, writes Sean Jensen of the Chicago Sun-Times.
- Detroit Lions defensive tackle Ndamukong Suh is recovering well from shoulder surgery, writes Dave Birkett of the Detroit Free Press.
- The Philadelphia Eagles' decision to move Juan Castillo to defensive coordinator means the Minnesota Vikings will keep defensive backs coach Joe Woods, who had interviewed for the job, notes Tom Pelissero of 1500ESPN.com.
We're Black and Blue All Over:
CHICAGO -- IT'S HERE.
WE MADE IT.
NO MORE TIME FOR TALK.
NO NEED TO DEBATE.
THE DAY HAS COME TO PLAY THE NFC CHAMPIONSHIP GAME.
GREEN BAY PACKERS.
CHICAGO BEARS.
LET'S DO THIS.
Sorry, my caps lock was jammed.
I'm writing from downtown Chicago, where we are getting a light dusting of snow that apparently will taper off in a few hours. Still, it has given us our own little white Christmas in the NFC North.
While we nervously pace the room, let's take a glance at some headlines from those who have been covering the Packers and Bears all season. I'll check back in with you from Soldier Field in a few hours:
CHICAGO -- IT'S HERE.
WE MADE IT.
NO MORE TIME FOR TALK.
NO NEED TO DEBATE.
THE DAY HAS COME TO PLAY THE NFC CHAMPIONSHIP GAME.
GREEN BAY PACKERS.
CHICAGO BEARS.
LET'S DO THIS.
Sorry, my caps lock was jammed.
I'm writing from downtown Chicago, where we are getting a light dusting of snow that apparently will taper off in a few hours. Still, it has given us our own little white Christmas in the NFC North.
While we nervously pace the room, let's take a glance at some headlines from those who have been covering the Packers and Bears all season. I'll check back in with you from Soldier Field in a few hours:
- David Haugh of the Chicago Tribune on Bears coach Lovie Smith: "But if the Bears beat the Packers, it will force us to start rethinking the way we view a guy who enjoys more respect around the league than in his own city. It would be time for everyone to show Lovie a little more love."
- Dan Pompei of the Tribune: "A very good chance exists the quarterbacks will decide whether the Bears or Packers goes to the Super Bowl."
- Rick Morrissey of the Chicago Sun-Times: "Bears-Packers, for everything. If that doesn't give you shivers, nothing will."
- This game puts Bears offensive coordinator Mike Martz at center stage, writes Mark Potash of the Sun-Times.
- Can the Bears' offensive line stand up against the Packers' blitzes? That's one of Michael C. Wright's five things to watch in this game over on ESPNChicago.com.
- Michael Wilbon of ESPNChicago.com writes of his boyhood hatred for one of these teams.
- Gary D'Amato of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel: "You can bet your cheesehead or your old William Perry poster that Dom Capers and Rod Marinelli, the respective defensive coordinators of the Packers and Bears, spent every waking moment last week crafting game plans to limit the effectiveness of the opposing quarterback."
- Tom Silverstein of the Journal Sentinel on Packers general manger Ted Thompson: "What got the Packers to the position they're in now is the confluence of two natural actions in the Thompson system: the maturation of young players into good players and the natural selection process of replacing good players with better ones. In theory, what you should have is a roster blossoming at the top and budding at the bottom. Whenever a blossom falls, there's a bud ready to bloom and take its place."
- Rob Demovsky of the Green Bay Press-Gazette speaks to former Packers president Bob Harlan about the decision to hire Thompson.
- Mike Vandermause of the Press-Gazette: "Yes, today's game at Soldier Field between NFC North rivals is huge. Yes, it will go down as the most important game in the 182-game history of the series. Yes, the winner will dance all the way to Dallas carrying huge bragging rights, while the loser will suffer through an especially long and painful offseason. But no animosity exists between these teams, no matter how hard some try to manufacture it."
- Jason Wilde of ESPNMilwaukee.com traces the rising public confidence of Packers coach Mike McCarthy.
- Check out who Wilde picked in this game. He is 14-4 in Packers games this season.
- Seven out of 10 ESPN experts are picking the Packers.
- If you want a pregame speech from the actor who plays Vince Lombardi in the currently-running Broadway show, check it out.
BBAO: Halas helped save the Packers
January, 19, 2011
1/19/11
7:40
AM ET
By
Kevin Seifert | ESPN.com
We're Black and Blue All Over:
As we discussed Sunday, in recent years the rivalry between the Green Bay Packers and Chicago Bears has been intense but respectful. Why is that? David Haugh of the Chicago Tribune offers a theory.
In 1956, Bears legend George Halas helped save the Packers in Green Bay. As Haugh recounts, Halas spoke forcefully at a rally to encourage local voters to approve public funding for reconstruction of their football field. Otherwise, in a preview of what current NFL business maneuvers would become, the Packers were likely to leave Green Bay forever.
Halas obviously wanted to beat the Packers twice per year but also didn't want them to leave and, as Haugh writes, had a "soft spot" for the franchise as well. He encouraged league leaders to reinstate the Packers after a 1922 scandal and also recommended Vince Lombardi as their new coach in 1958. (Update: As kevinjoho80 points out, it's also true that the Halas accepted a $1,500 loan from the Packers in 1932.)
There have been some shaky moments in the history of this rivalry, but if nothing else, Halas ensured it would live on.
Continuing around the NFC North:
As we discussed Sunday, in recent years the rivalry between the Green Bay Packers and Chicago Bears has been intense but respectful. Why is that? David Haugh of the Chicago Tribune offers a theory.

In 1956, Bears legend George Halas helped save the Packers in Green Bay. As Haugh recounts, Halas spoke forcefully at a rally to encourage local voters to approve public funding for reconstruction of their football field. Otherwise, in a preview of what current NFL business maneuvers would become, the Packers were likely to leave Green Bay forever.
Halas obviously wanted to beat the Packers twice per year but also didn't want them to leave and, as Haugh writes, had a "soft spot" for the franchise as well. He encouraged league leaders to reinstate the Packers after a 1922 scandal and also recommended Vince Lombardi as their new coach in 1958. (Update: As kevinjoho80 points out, it's also true that the Halas accepted a $1,500 loan from the Packers in 1932.)
There have been some shaky moments in the history of this rivalry, but if nothing else, Halas ensured it would live on.
Continuing around the NFC North:
- Dan Pompei of the Tribune on Bears defensive tackle Tommie Harris: "The Bears' defensive scheme is reliant on a three technique tackle who can penetrate and create pass rush opportunities for others. [Defensive coordinator Rod] Marinelli has been searching all season for a second player who can burst off the line and get upfield quickly to complement Julius Peppers. If Harris can be that man, confetti may be raining on the Bears in the coming weeks."
- Will Mike Tice be rewarded for the job he has done with the Bears offensive line? Sean Jensen of the Chicago Sun-Times looks into it.
- Jon Greenberg of ESPNChicago.com looks at the ticket situation for Sunday's game. The average sale price at StubHub had moved past $800 as of Tuesday afternoon.
- Lori Nickel of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel profiles Packers cornerback Tramon Williams.
- Jason Cole of Yahoo! Sports on Williams: "Is it possible to outplay a contract extension in less than two months?"
- Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers has been the best player in the 2010 playoffs, writes Pete Dougherty of the Green Bay Press-Gazette.
- Jason Wilde of ESPNMilwaukee.com traces the Packers' success on the road under coach Mike McCarthy.
- The Minnesota Vikings lost out on offensive coordinator candidate Josh McDaniels, who was hired by the St. Louis Rams as expected. The Vikings will now interview Atlanta Falcons assistant Bill Musgrave for the job.
- The Vikings have been tight-lipped about the process, according to the Star Tribune.
- Detroit Lions running back Kevin Smith is not looking to leave the team, writes Tim Twentyman of the Detroit News.
- The Lions aren't that far away from emulating the Bears and Packers, writes Bob Wojnowski of the News.
Great Debate: Can Rodgers overtake Favre?
August, 31, 2010
8/31/10
7:50
AM ET
By
Kevin Seifert and
Gene Wojciechowski | ESPN.com
Assuming he retires, Brett Favre will one day enter the Pro Football Hall of Fame with a sack of NFL records to his name. He'll have more attempts, completions, yards, touchdowns (and interceptions) than any quarterback who has played the game.
But a funny thing happened when Favre left Green Bay after the 2007 season: His successor made arguably the best debut in the history of the league. Indeed, Aaron Rodgers is the first quarterback ever to produce consecutive 4,000-yard seasons at the start of his career.
At 26, Rodgers' career remains a mostly unwritten story. But after throwing for 8,472 yards in the past two seasons, and then picking up this summer with a red-hot preseason, the possibilities are endless. ESPN.com national columnist Gene Wojciechowski and NFC North blogger Kevin Seifert are here to ponder the question: Could Rodgers ultimately go down as the best Packers quarterback of all time?
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AP Photo/Mike RoemerBrett Favre (left) and Aaron Rodgers will be forever linked in Green Bay.
AP Photo/Mike RoemerBrett Favre (left) and Aaron Rodgers will be forever linked in Green Bay.The raw numbers suggest that Rodgers will need to play another 13 or 14 seasons at his current pace -- even if the regular season moves to 18 games -- to overtake Favre from a statistical standpoint in Packers history. That's not to say it can't be done. All he would have to do is be in condition to throw for 4,000-plus yards when he's 40 years old. I know a guy who did that.
Favre's longevity has been his greatest career asset. The chances of Rodgers -- or anyone else for that matter - playing at such a high level for so long are not high. So for the purposes of this debate, I think we might need to rely on less objective measurables. Rodgers might not reach Favre's gross numbers, but that doesn't mean he won't one day be considered the better quarterback.
I think Rodgers is already a smarter passer. He's thrown a combined 20 interceptions in two seasons as a starter. Favre has thrown more than 20 interceptions in five single seasons as a starter.
Gene Wojciechowski: I'm sorry? Rely on less objective measurables? As the great Lee Corso says, "Not so fast, my friend."
Rodgers could end up as the greatest Packers quarterback of all time. And I could grow a full head of hair by daybreak.
Before Cheeseheads everywhere take that as a rip on Rodgers, remember a few things: I own two Packers jerseys (a Hornung and a Sharpe), my family is from Wisconsin and I've lived among you. But Favre's career numbers make it almost impossible for Rodgers, even with all his considerable talent, to surpass Favre.
I did the math. He'd have to average 4,000 passing yards for the next 15-plus seasons (at 16 games per season) to catch Favre's current total passing yards. He'd have to average 30 touchdown passes (which is what Rodgers had last year) for the next 14-plus season to reach Favre's 497 career touchdowns. He'd have to average 350 connections for the next 15-plus seasons to reach Favre's career completion totals.
Favre has 285 consecutive starts, the second most in the history of the league. Do we really think Rodgers will get to that number? Favre also had started 61 games and thrown for about 15,000 yards by the time he was 26. At the same age, Rodgers has thrown for 8,801 yards. And the scary part? Favre isn't done yet.
Yes, Rodgers is a remarkable talent. He's made a believer out of me with his arm and his toughness. But I'm not sure what you mean by a smarter passer. Didn't his postseason end with an interception?
KS: Hey, hey. Be nice, Gene. I'm just some blogger sitting in a (Wi-Fi enabled) igloo up north. But let's address your claims so I can keep my fingers from freezing.
First, Rodgers' postseason didn't end on an interception. It was on a fumble when a free blitzer grabbed his face mask and cheated Packers fans everywhere out of a trip to New Orleans. Not my guy Aaron's fault.
The thing I like most about Rodgers is that he's an aggressive, downfield passer without being a reckless gunslinger. Like Favre, he gets big chunks of yards. (In fact, he gets more.) But unlike Favre, he avoids unnecessary risks to do it. It's a rarity to see Rodgers throw a ball up for grabs or into double coverage.
And in this case, at least, the numbers bear me out. In his first two seasons as a starter, Rodgers has thrown 58 touchdown passes and 20 interceptions. In his first two seasons with the Packers, Favre threw 37 and 37.
Otherwise, I'm with you on the numbers argument. As I said, it's going to be awfully difficult for Rodgers to play at such a high level when he is Favre's age. He's got almost no chance at the career totals, and his odds for overtaking Favre just in his Packers years aren't much better. But we already know that Rodgers, like Favre, is a gamer.
In 2008, he played with a sprained throwing shoulder. Last season, he played in all 16 games despite a foot injury that caused him to limp noticeably during some games in 2009.
I talked to Rodgers during training camp this summer. More than anything else, Rodgers said he is proud to have made every start since taking over as the starter. I realize his streak is only at 32, but he absolutely values that aspect of playing quarterback in the NFL.
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AP Photo/Andy KingBrett Favre had started 61 games and thrown for about 15,000 yards by the time he was 26.
AP Photo/Andy KingBrett Favre had started 61 games and thrown for about 15,000 yards by the time he was 26.Longevity alone shouldn't guarantee that title to Favre. From what I've seen of Rodgers so far, I think he has a good chance to finish his career as a more accurate, less mistake-prone passer. Victories and championships also could tilt our judgment.
To this point, Rodgers' career record as a starter is 17-15. Favre's was 160-93 with the Packers, a considerably higher winning percentage. But in his first two seasons, Favre was 18-14.
GW: Well, it's not like I'm sitting in a palatial estate in Palm Springs watching a polo match while an attendant pulls a fresh frostie from the cooler for me. I'm just a state or two over, in Illinois, home of Blago and Bears hysteria.
But you're right and I'm wrong about the Rodgers interception. It didn't come at the end of the wild-card loss to AZ, but on the first play of the game and later resulted in a Cardinals touchdown.
You're also right about Rodgers' toughness, physical and mental. It was a humbling day when he was taken with the 24th pick--much later than he expected -- of the 2005 draft. But he dealt with it. And he dealt with the controversy surrounding Favre's messy departure from Green Bay. I'd argue that he handled it better than Favre or Packers general manager Ted Thompson. And he has played through injuries, significant ones. I'm sure that meant a great deal to him, as well as to his teammates, who had come to expect nothing less than Favre.
I agree with you about the pure numbers versus greatest Packers quarterback of all time. It isn't a prerequisite. In fact, I'd argue that Rodgers first has to surpass the legacy of Bart Starr before we start worrying about Favre. I'm guessing there are Packers fans who flip Starr for Favre.
Rodgers' early numbers are encouraging and impressive, but he has yet to lead the Packers to a division title or a playoff win in those two years.
KS: Bart Starr? Please. You mean the guy who was the caretaker on all of Vince Lombardi's championship teams? Was the book called "Run to Daylight" or "Pass to Daylight?" I can't remember. What? You say Bart Starr is in the Pro Football Hall of Fame? Er, lemme check that one out. ...
Anyway, I guess the premise of my argument is that Rodgers has established a high standard at the base of his career. It presupposes he continues that upward climb, and I think that will continue in 2010. I think the Packers will win the NFC North, make a deep playoff run and be one of two or three favorites to represent the NFC in the Super Bowl.
If that happens with Rodgers at quarterback, I think I'll be on to something. If not, I guess I'll just be on something.
GW: How dare you mock the great Starr.
Anyway, is this what you would call a Seifert leap of faith? Rodgers does something for two seasons, so that means he'll do it for the next 10? The NFL is littered with guys who start fast and then, for whatever reason, can't sustain the production.
I don't presuppose anything. Rodgers has played two full seasons, that's it. I like what I see, but I'm not ready to say he's destined for football immortality.
In his favor: a wonderful feel for the game, a set of really good wide receivers and tight ends, a head coach who loves the passing game.
Not so much in his favor: an improved -- but still questionable -- offensive line, playing at Lambeau in the snow months (yes, I know, Favre did just fine), and a knack for suffering injuries.
I'm reserving judgment on the 2010 NFC North. I'm leaning toward the Pack, but you can't tell me Favre's Vikings won't be a factor. And I'm having a hard time forgetting about Green Bay's shaky offensive line last season and those 51 points Arizona scored in the playoffs against them. But that's just me, Mr. Negative.
KS: You said it, not me. I'm all sunshine and roses. Brett and Bart are both Hall of Famers. And Aaron Rodgers has a chance to be better than both of them. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
A weeklong look at current or former players or coaches with Hall of Fame potential in the division.
Chicago Bears: Brian Urlacher, middle linebacker
Claim to fame: Since joining the Bears in 2000, Urlacher has made six Pro Bowl teams and been named an All-Pro four times. He was the NFL’s Defensive Rookie of the Year in 2000 and Defensive Player of the Year in 2005.
Case for enshrinement: Urlacher was the best player on a defense that dominated the league during the middle years of this decade, one that overcame the Bears’ offensive woes and led them to the Super Bowl in 2006. As a middle linebacker in the Tampa 2 scheme, Urlacher carried as much responsibility as any defensive player in the game -- calling defensive signals, chasing down ball carriers and covering the deep middle of the field during pass plays.
In that role, Urlacher has been an athletic playmaker unmatched in his prime, notching 17 interceptions and 37.5 sacks, while getting downfield faster than any linebacker in the game.
Case against enshrinement: Injuries have slowed Urlacher in the past three seasons and he might not have compiled enough Canton-caliber seasons before that point. Detractors also could suggest he benefited disproportionately from the play of defensive tackles Tommie Harris and Tank Johnson, who kept blockers away from Urlacher more often than not. Hall Of Fame voters haven’t been kind to even the best of Bears defenders. Mike Singletary and Dan Hampton are the only Chicago defensive stars from the 1985 Super Bowl team in Canton. Their teammate Richard Dent is now a six-time finalist for Hall of Fame induction but still is waiting for his official invite.
Parting shot: As we noted last fall, Urlacher might not stand as the best linebacker of his era. Ray Lewis, Junior Seau and Derrick Brooks might have something to say about that.
Detroit Lions: Billy Sims, running back
Claim to fame: He was a dominant runner during the early 1980s. Sims became the Lions’ all-time leading rusher even though a knee injury ended his career after 4 1/2 years. (Barry Sanders later overtook him.) Sims was a three-time Pro Bowl player, still ranks as the Lions’ No. 2 rusher, and has the second-most rushing touchdowns in team history.
Case for enshrinement: It’s obviously a long shot, but it’s important to remember how brightly Sims’ star shined during his brief career. He rushed for 153 yards in his first NFL game, led the league with 16 touchdowns as a rookie and finished his career with 5,106 yards in 60 career games.
His career ended midway through the 1984 season, at a time when he was averaging a career-high 5.3 yards per rush. There is precedent for acknowledging Hall-worthy careers cut short by injuries. Did you know that Chicago Bears Hall of Fame running back Gale Sayers, forced to retire at age 28, gained fewer career rushing yards (4,956) than Sims in more games (68)?
Case against enshrinement: Sayers was a special case who was also a dangerous return man. In reality, it’s difficult for voters to consider a running back who ranks No. 106 on the NFL’s all-time rushing list. But Sims was one of the NFL’s top players during the time he spent in the game.
Parting shot: Sims’ impact on the team also should be considered. The Lions were 2-14 the year before he was drafted. In 1980, they improved to 9-7. By 1983, they were division champions.
Green Bay Packers: Jerry Kramer, guard
Claim to fame: During an 11-season career from 1958-68, Kramer was a five-time All-Pro. He was named to the NFL’s All-Decade Team for the 1960s and was the only guard selected for the NFL’s 50th Anniversary team. Every other player on that team has been enshrined in the Hall of Fame.
Case for enshrinement: As with most successful offensive linemen, most of Kramer’s contributions came in a team context.
During his tenure, the Packers rushed for 21,637 yards -- the second-highest total among all NFL teams over that period. Kramer’s blocking was one of the reasons fullback Jim Taylor posted five consecutive 1,000-yard seasons. Over that stretch, Taylor rushed for more yards than anyone but Cleveland’s Jim Brown. Overall, the Packers made the playoffs eight times in Kramer’s career and won three NFL Championships and two Super Bowls.
Case against enshrinement: Guard isn't usually a highly valued position. In the history of the game, only 11 players who were primarily guards have made the Hall of Fame.
Voters could also be split on the source of the Packers’ running success, from Vince Lombardi’s coaching to the individual talents of Taylor and running back Paul Hornung.
Parting shot: Kramer made one of the most famous blocks in history, clearing the way for Bart Starr’s quarterback sneak to win the 1967 “Ice Bowl” game.
Minnesota Vikings: Jim Marshall, defensive end
Claim to fame: Marshall set a then-NFL record by playing in 282 consecutive games, of which he started 270. He played in two Pro Bowls, four Super Bowls and recovered an NFL-record 29 fumbles.
Case for enshrinement: If “answering the bell” is one of the main prerequisites for NFL players, then Jim Marshall is one of the greatest of all time. Although some of the stories have been embellished a bit over time, suffice it to say that Marshall battled through enormous pain and legitimate injuries to play for so long and at such a high level.
A punter (Jeff Feagles) and a quarterback (Brett Favre) have since surpassed his record, but it’s doubtful a defensive lineman ever will approach it. It would take 17 seasons of starting 16 games to do it. (Or 15 years if the NFL moves to an 18-game season.)
The longevity mark sometimes overshadows Marshall’s skills as a pass-rusher. Although sacks weren’t an official statistic then, the Vikings credit him with 127 -- only three fewer than teammate and Hall of Fame tackle Alan Page and 13 more than newly elected tackle John Randle.
Case against enshrinement: Like it or not, one of those 29 fumble recoveries always will haunt Marshall’s candidacy. In 1964, he picked up a fumble against San Francisco and ran 66 yards in the wrong direction for what was ruled a safety.
Parting shot: Another factor that might not be fair but is worth considering: Two members of the Purple People Eaters, Page and Eller, are already in the Hall of Fame. Would voters agree that 75 percent of one defensive line should be enshrined?
Chicago Bears: Brian Urlacher, middle linebacker
Claim to fame: Since joining the Bears in 2000, Urlacher has made six Pro Bowl teams and been named an All-Pro four times. He was the NFL’s Defensive Rookie of the Year in 2000 and Defensive Player of the Year in 2005.
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Tom Fluegge/US PresswireExtraordinarily athletic for a linebacker, Brian Urlacher has recorded 17 interceptions and 37.5 sacks in his career.
Tom Fluegge/US PresswireExtraordinarily athletic for a linebacker, Brian Urlacher has recorded 17 interceptions and 37.5 sacks in his career.In that role, Urlacher has been an athletic playmaker unmatched in his prime, notching 17 interceptions and 37.5 sacks, while getting downfield faster than any linebacker in the game.
Case against enshrinement: Injuries have slowed Urlacher in the past three seasons and he might not have compiled enough Canton-caliber seasons before that point. Detractors also could suggest he benefited disproportionately from the play of defensive tackles Tommie Harris and Tank Johnson, who kept blockers away from Urlacher more often than not. Hall Of Fame voters haven’t been kind to even the best of Bears defenders. Mike Singletary and Dan Hampton are the only Chicago defensive stars from the 1985 Super Bowl team in Canton. Their teammate Richard Dent is now a six-time finalist for Hall of Fame induction but still is waiting for his official invite.
Parting shot: As we noted last fall, Urlacher might not stand as the best linebacker of his era. Ray Lewis, Junior Seau and Derrick Brooks might have something to say about that.
Detroit Lions: Billy Sims, running back
Claim to fame: He was a dominant runner during the early 1980s. Sims became the Lions’ all-time leading rusher even though a knee injury ended his career after 4 1/2 years. (Barry Sanders later overtook him.) Sims was a three-time Pro Bowl player, still ranks as the Lions’ No. 2 rusher, and has the second-most rushing touchdowns in team history.
Case for enshrinement: It’s obviously a long shot, but it’s important to remember how brightly Sims’ star shined during his brief career. He rushed for 153 yards in his first NFL game, led the league with 16 touchdowns as a rookie and finished his career with 5,106 yards in 60 career games.
His career ended midway through the 1984 season, at a time when he was averaging a career-high 5.3 yards per rush. There is precedent for acknowledging Hall-worthy careers cut short by injuries. Did you know that Chicago Bears Hall of Fame running back Gale Sayers, forced to retire at age 28, gained fewer career rushing yards (4,956) than Sims in more games (68)?
Case against enshrinement: Sayers was a special case who was also a dangerous return man. In reality, it’s difficult for voters to consider a running back who ranks No. 106 on the NFL’s all-time rushing list. But Sims was one of the NFL’s top players during the time he spent in the game.
Parting shot: Sims’ impact on the team also should be considered. The Lions were 2-14 the year before he was drafted. In 1980, they improved to 9-7. By 1983, they were division champions.
Green Bay Packers: Jerry Kramer, guard
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David Boss/US PresswireThe Packers won three NFL Championships and two Super Bowls during Jerry Kramer's career.
David Boss/US PresswireThe Packers won three NFL Championships and two Super Bowls during Jerry Kramer's career.Case for enshrinement: As with most successful offensive linemen, most of Kramer’s contributions came in a team context.
During his tenure, the Packers rushed for 21,637 yards -- the second-highest total among all NFL teams over that period. Kramer’s blocking was one of the reasons fullback Jim Taylor posted five consecutive 1,000-yard seasons. Over that stretch, Taylor rushed for more yards than anyone but Cleveland’s Jim Brown. Overall, the Packers made the playoffs eight times in Kramer’s career and won three NFL Championships and two Super Bowls.
Case against enshrinement: Guard isn't usually a highly valued position. In the history of the game, only 11 players who were primarily guards have made the Hall of Fame.
Voters could also be split on the source of the Packers’ running success, from Vince Lombardi’s coaching to the individual talents of Taylor and running back Paul Hornung.
Parting shot: Kramer made one of the most famous blocks in history, clearing the way for Bart Starr’s quarterback sneak to win the 1967 “Ice Bowl” game.
Minnesota Vikings: Jim Marshall, defensive end
Claim to fame: Marshall set a then-NFL record by playing in 282 consecutive games, of which he started 270. He played in two Pro Bowls, four Super Bowls and recovered an NFL-record 29 fumbles.
Case for enshrinement: If “answering the bell” is one of the main prerequisites for NFL players, then Jim Marshall is one of the greatest of all time. Although some of the stories have been embellished a bit over time, suffice it to say that Marshall battled through enormous pain and legitimate injuries to play for so long and at such a high level.
A punter (Jeff Feagles) and a quarterback (Brett Favre) have since surpassed his record, but it’s doubtful a defensive lineman ever will approach it. It would take 17 seasons of starting 16 games to do it. (Or 15 years if the NFL moves to an 18-game season.)
The longevity mark sometimes overshadows Marshall’s skills as a pass-rusher. Although sacks weren’t an official statistic then, the Vikings credit him with 127 -- only three fewer than teammate and Hall of Fame tackle Alan Page and 13 more than newly elected tackle John Randle.
Case against enshrinement: Like it or not, one of those 29 fumble recoveries always will haunt Marshall’s candidacy. In 1964, he picked up a fumble against San Francisco and ran 66 yards in the wrong direction for what was ruled a safety.
Parting shot: Another factor that might not be fair but is worth considering: Two members of the Purple People Eaters, Page and Eller, are already in the Hall of Fame. Would voters agree that 75 percent of one defensive line should be enshrined?
B & B all over: 'Unlikely but possible'
April, 15, 2010
4/15/10
8:00
AM ET
By
Kevin Seifert | ESPN.com
Minnesota's stadium negotiations have continued to grow more interesting, if not more successful, this week. Vikings owner Zygi Wilf held a closed-door meeting with 20 state legislators Tuesday, and on Wednesday Gov. Tim Pawlenty did not rule out the possibility that public financing for a new stadium could be approved in the next month.
Pawlenty called that prospect "unlikely but possible," which actually is more optimistic than any public statements I've seen or heard him make. This report from the Star Tribune details a number of financing proposals under consideration to replace the Metrodome, including one that would require a less expensive design. The current price tag is $870 million.
The story suggests that, at the very least, a bill will be introduced before the end of the legislative session. The Vikings' Metrodome lease expires after the 2011 season. Stay tuned.
Continuing around the NFC North with the draft one week out:
Pawlenty called that prospect "unlikely but possible," which actually is more optimistic than any public statements I've seen or heard him make. This report from the Star Tribune details a number of financing proposals under consideration to replace the Metrodome, including one that would require a less expensive design. The current price tag is $870 million.
The story suggests that, at the very least, a bill will be introduced before the end of the legislative session. The Vikings' Metrodome lease expires after the 2011 season. Stay tuned.
Continuing around the NFC North with the draft one week out:
- Minnesota punter Chris Kluwe on the new Wrangler jeans quarterback Brett Favre donated to his teammates: "They're very nice. I might need to break them in a little bit, though. They're kind of stiff. ... Maybe drag them behind my car for a couple miles." Tom Pelissero of 1500ESPN.com has more.
- The Vikings moved receiver Darius Reynaud to running back after he played the role of New Orleans tailback Reggie Bush on the scout team prior to the NFC Championship Game, writes Chip Scoggins of the Star Tribune.
- Actor Dan Lauria will play former Green Bay coach Vince Lombardi in an upcoming Broadway show.
- The Packers hosted Tennessee quarterback Jonathan Crompton on a visit Wednesday, according to Tom Silverstein of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.
- New Detroit cornerback Chris Houston is lobbying the Lions to draft Nebraska defensive tackle Ndamukong Suh next month, writes Nicholas J. Cotsonika of the Detroit Free Press.
- Lions defensive end Kyle Vanden Bosch will play primarily on the right side, according to Tom Kowalski of Mlive.com.
- Newly retired Lions tight end Casey FitzSimmons is still feeling the effects of his last concussion, writes John Niyo of the Detroit News.
- Chicago's contract with linebacker Pisa Tinoisamoa is worth $875,000, according to Brad Biggs of the Chicago Tribune.
- Here are the fifth- and fourth-round installments of ESPN.com's best-ever draft series.


