Jeff Merron

  (5:00 PM)

Welcome, everyone. I'm looking forward to chatting about most underrated players. The toughest thing was narrowing it down to 10.

Mike (Silver Spring, Maryland)

I don't get a chance to read all the articles but it appears that you have forgotten Jamie Moyer from the most underrated players list. I don't know exact stats but he has had more wins than Randy Johnson over the space of 3 or 4 years.

Jeff Merron

  (5:02 PM)

I didn't forget Jamie Moyer. A year ago, he would have made the list, for sure. This year, he's finally getting some love. That's why he didn't quite make the cut.

Chapel Hill, NC

How can you compare Giles and B. Williams? There is no question that if Giles were playing under the scrutinous eye of Steinbrenner and the pressure to perform that Bernie has played his whole career under in New York of all places...then those On Base numbers would not look so pretty.

Jeff Merron

  (5:05 PM)

No doubt there's a lot of pressure playing in New York for the Yankees. But how do you measure that? And how do you know how a guy will respond to it? Maybe Giles, like Bernie, would handle it all just fine. There's no telling.

keith(swanton, vt)

Don't you think Scott Stevens should be on that list. No Norris Trophies, no mention with the best players in the game, but 3 Stanley Cups. I'd say he is VERY underrated.

Jeff Merron

  (5:09 PM)

Stevens was No. 10 when I wrote the first draft of the list. Then, after talking it over with some other ESPN folk who know more about hockey than i do, he dropped a few notches -- not because he's not great, but because they thought he was pretty well recognized.

Arif (Edison, NJ)

I'm a NY fan and we don't have many underrated athletes but I wanted to know why not Garret Anderson? Is it because he's getting some love this year after winning the HR derby and MVP of the All-Star Game?

Jeff Merron

  (5:11 PM)

Garret's on his way to having a fourth consecutive 100+ RBI season, you can count on him for 25+ homers, he hardly ever misses a game, and he's a model of consistency. You're right, he's gotten some love, and probably should get some more.

Ben, College Park, MD

Jeff: I have a philosophical problem with this particular list. The saying goes something like this, "ESPN, the worldwide leader in sports." Tough to argue by any objective standard. Since ESPN is the sports barometer, one could make the argument that they ARE the sports radar. If someone flies below this radar, it seems that ESPN shoulders much of that blame. For ESPN to then run a story about atheletes flying below a radar they create seems like a self-fulfilling prophesy to me. I enjoy the other lists and they provide great spark for discussion. But this finger should be pointed at the mirror only.

Jeff Merron

  (5:13 PM)

It's a great philosophical question, Ben. The short answer is that nobody asks me who should be on the cover of the magazine, or who should be featured on SportsCenter, or who should be on the Sunday Night Game of the Week. So, as an individual, I have very little control over who gets lots of publicity from ESPN, and who doesn't get enough. And, as you noted (thank you!), these lists are meant to be fodder for discussion -- something to talk about, but certainly not the last word.

Andrew (Philly)

Hey Jeff, I was gonna say Bernie Parent as underrated...He was one of the best goalies in history with the flyers during the 70s', yet he's barely ever mentioned among the great goalies...I was wondering what you thought, thanks!

Jeff Merron

  (5:16 PM)

Ah, Bernie Parent. He was huge when I was growing up, and I heard about him plenty from a friend who was an avid Flyers fan. Tomorrow, I'm doing a list of the All-Time most overrated. I'll check him out.

Tameika Jersey City,NJ

No offense to Ron Francis but Scott Niedermayer, of the New Jersey devils, is a very underrated player

Austin O'fallon, MO.

I have no problem with the list I so think a name should be added how about R. Palmerio.

Neil Menzies, New York

Could you please post the Sports Guy's critical responses to your pick of Doug Christie as one of the most underrated athletes of all time? I can picture Simmons' brain overload right now.... Thanks!

Jeff Merron

  (5:19 PM)

I haven't read Bill's comments yet, but if he thought I picked Christie as one of the most underrated OF ALL TIME, he was mistaken.

Wash DC

So on your latest top 10 list I guess you haven't heard of Edgar Martinez. I guess then he is truly underrated. The guy gets no press. He probably prefers it that way though.

Jeff Merron

  (5:21 PM)

I have heard of Edgar Martinez. He's a six-time All-Star. He's great. One of the best power hitters in baseball. Soon he'll hit his 300th homer. But I don't think he's underrated, because I think lots of fans have heard of him and know how good he is.

Matt Snyder (Elyria, Ohio)

I've really got a problem with Jeff Bagwell AND Craig Biggio being on the list. Did you grow up with them or something. And making reference to a comment that Biggio is comparable to Griffey in their primes. Take a look at each players best season and please tell me where the comparison is. BA HR OPS RBI Biggio .325 20 .906 88 Griffey .304 56 1.028 147

Jeff Merron

  (5:24 PM)

I've gotten a slew of questions on these guys, and it's possible I rated them too high, or should have combined them as a pair. That said: Bagwell: lifetime .414 on-base percentage, 20th highest OPS of all time, and probably headed for the Hall of Fame. Biggio -- for more on the comparison to Griffey, check out The New Bill James Historical Abstract, p. 362. Except for the long ball, Biggio was better. And -- I'm quoting James here -- "Ken Griffey Jr. is a great player. Craig Biggio is better."

Ft.Washington, Md

On your underrated list, I was surprised not to see Takeo Spikes, the newly acquired Bills linebacker. He is flat out awesome and should have been a Pro Bowler the last couple of years despite playing for the lowly Benglas. His 171 tackles last year was nothing to scoff at and he missed only one game in 80 with the Bengals, and that was for his father's death. His stats and durability easily make him one of the better linebackers in the AFC yet many people don't even know who he is.

Chris (Cincinnati)

What about Corey Dillon? During his six seasons with the Bengals, Dillon has reached 1000 rushing yards each season, he holds the single game rushing record, and he has all of the above while having very little support from the rest of the team. d little publicity, despite having reached 1000 yards in each of his

Jeff Merron

  (5:27 PM)

That's one of the problems about playing for a team like the Bengals -- even when you do well, it's a pretty thankless job. Both underrated, for sure, because so few people are paying attention.

Brian, Philly, PA

Jeff, what about Christie's incredible choke job in the '02 conference finals against LA? How many wide-open 3's can you airball/brick at the end of a game?

Jeff Merron

  (5:28 PM)

I don't believe that a poor performance -- even a terrible one -- in a game or a series wipes out or greatly diminishes 10 very good years.

Matt Ottinger - Whitestown, IN

Jeff, How about some props for my man Mark Grudzielanek? He's a tough guy who came to Chicago in a salary dump by the Dodgers and has filled in nicely at 2B while hitting over .300. Grudzie's a big reason the Cubbies are near the top of their division, but his name is too long for people to bring up at the water cooler. Matt Ottinger Whitestown, IN

Jeff Merron

  (5:30 PM)

Matt, I know what it's like to love a guy just because. You're talking to a fan who used to root for George "The Stork" Theodore and Duffy Dyer. But Grudzielanek is an average second baseman who is, in my opinion, accurately rated.

Jim, Linwood, NJ

Jeff, what about John Olerud. A guy like Jeff Bagwell is not overrated, he is probably going to the Hall of Fame. Olerud would have to be the most underrated first baseman in baseball as he still contributes every night, as seen with his 7 RBI performance the other night. Vernon Wells isn't underrated either, he's an All-Star, and should have been the starting center fielder.

Jeff Merron

  (5:31 PM)

I agree that guys like Olerud, who go out and do their job well and with great consistency, don't get enough attention. That's one of the problems with the highlights culture we live in. Wells? One of the best young players in the game, and as you said, Jim, should have been an All-Star starter, but wasn't. Doesn't that = underrated?

Justin from Dillsburg, PA

In your list of the underated athlete, you left out one who I feel should be on the list. Wayne Chrebet of the New York Jets. Sure he doesn't put up huge numbers or bring a lot of media attention, but this is supposed to be a list of the underated. He is proobably the best 3rd down reciever in the history of the game, he shows the heart and grit of a true New York football player, and probably the most important... he ran Keywho Johnson out of town. Maybe you should reconsider adding Lil' Wayne to your list. Thanks

Pat, Marion, MT

Mark Recchi and Mike Liberthal are two players I think deserved some consideration on your underatted players list. Liberthal has consistently batted over 300 and Mark Recchi has been a continual staple for the Flyer's offense, as well as an exemplary leader.

Rob Garofolo. Chicago, IL

What about Magglio Ordonez?? Has twice been an all-star and was named player of month for July, but never seems to get the notoriety of other stars in the game and is often overshadowed on his own team by Frank Thomas.

Jeff Merron

  (5:33 PM)

Rob, I agree with you -- he's overshadowed by Thomas. And he's probably underrated for that reason. But I don't think he'd crack my top 10 underrated list. Maybe top 20.

tf; cincy, oh

when you say 'athletes,' you just mean athletes from the big 4 sports? i don't see any golfers, boxers, swimmers, cyclists, tennis players, etc (or women) on the list. please clarify that.

Jeff Merron

  (5:34 PM)

Right. I focused on the big four pro sports for a couple of reasons. 1) They're team sports, and it's easier to be overlooked/underrated in a team sport, and 2) the other sports you mention (except for boxing) have fairly accurate measures by which the individuals are ranked -- by time, by head-to-head competition, and by, in the case of tennis, an elaborate ranking system.

Chris Haddonfield, NJ

Jeff...how about Anaheim's Garrett Anderson as an underrated athlete?

Jeff Merron

  (5:35 PM)

Garret's on his way to having a fourth consecutive 100+ RBI season, you can count on him for 25+ homers, he hardly ever misses a game, and he's a model of consistency. You're right, he should get some more love.

Jerry, Traverse City MI

More underrated, the seedless watermelon or the cherry tomato?

Jeff Merron

  (5:37 PM)

Watermelon!

Rakoto, Lafayette, IN

Hey Jeff, I would add Merlene Ottey, Serguei Bubka and Frankie Fredericks... then again I have an international bias...

Jeff Merron

  (5:39 PM)

Yes, the list really focuses on North American sports ... As a track fan, there's a lot of folks who I'd love to put on the list as underrated in the U.S., but the fact is just that the sport itself is underrated.

Andy , Detroit

Ben Wallace is Underated you have to play D in Bball.

Jeff Merron

  (5:41 PM)

I think people are onto Ben Wallace, Andy -- certainly he got more good publicity last year than ever before. Who's underrating him?

Steve, Fort Collins

I have no problem with the list, I think you did a good job. My problem is with the "OPS (on base plus slugging percentage)." I understand it is the latest important stat, but I think it is time to do away with the parenthetical explanation. Whenever a writer/sportscaster uses OPS they feel the need to explain what it means, as though they have some inside info about which the rest of us are ignorant. Why not use the same method for all abbreviated terms? I am sure there are some people who still don't know what a RBI (Run Batted In) is, or a K (strikeout), or a SB (stolen base). How about hockey? What on earth is a G (Goal)? How about an A (Assist)? Or an S (Save)? Do you see what I mean? I think you should be a pioneer in the elimination of OPS (on base plus slugging) parenthetical overuse. So whaddaya say, Jeff? Do it for a better America and a brighter tomorrow.

Jeff Merron

  (5:42 PM)

I'll give the editors here a heads up, Steve. I wrote it as OPS, without the parenthetical explanation. So somewhere up the line it was slapped in there. However, I do think that most casual baseball fans know the meaning of RBI, K, SB, HR, etc. OPS is probably still pretty obscure except to the serious fans. And of course, there are some GMs who need to be educated about OPS ...

Michael (Falls Church, VA)

Jeff, could you combine two of your page 2 summer themes and create a top 10 for underated stadiums in all sports; us page 2 readers would appreciate it, thanks

Jeff Merron

  (5:45 PM)

Hey, that's a good idea, Michael! I'll pass it on.

Wes (Dallas)

I want to know what Bagwell's numbers would look like if he did not play in the 'Dome all those years. Any predictions?

Jeff Merron

  (5:48 PM)

I don't have the numbers handy, but the easy way to answer such a question is to look at home-away splits. His numbers at parks other than the Dome probably give a fair representation of how he'd do at the "average" NL park.

David Verrett of New Orleans,Louisiana

What about San Antonio Spurs forward Bruce Bowen? Although he is not a great free throw shooter, he is one of the game's best three point shooters and a terrific defender.

matt, ga

what about eric snow? all the guy does is go out there and play consistent. he is a true point who looks to dish first and shoot second. also a terrific defender. what do u think?

Matt(NY)

Kurt Thomas of the Knicks is underrated!!! He plays hard but is overshadowed by the 100 mil man Allan Houston and former Knickerbocker Sprewell

Jeff Merron

  (5:51 PM)

A couple of folks have mentioned Kurt Thomas, Matt.

JOHN-ST LOUIS

What about entire teams? It seems that Everyone is overlooking the Rams this season. MISTAKE.....can you say Superbowl Champs.....Again!

Jeff Merron

  (5:54 PM)

Dave Schoenfield wrote a terrific list of the most underrated teams of all time, posted today on P2. I suggest you guys check it out. As for Super Bowl predictions ... Thanks risky business any preseason. I'll pass. Thanks everyone -- it's been great chatting. Some really good suggestions here and some folks have pointed out where I may have missed the boat.