SportsNation Blog Archives
Cliff Lee
On Tuesday (when Phillies fans and Yankees haters could still picture the Bronx Bombers without a 2009 World Series title), a majority of SportsNation overwhelmingly picked Chase Utley as MVP of the World Series.
Yet with the Yankees taking home the title of world champs, was it only fitting that a New York player (Hideki Matsui) win the award? Or should Utley's numbers (most notably, his five home runs this series) have made him the 2009 World Series MVP? Discuss and vote below!
“Matsui is the MVP. He single-handily [won] today's game and finished the series with 3 homers, 8 RBIs, .615 average. Sorry Mariano not this year.
” -- Jake-Macauley
- Vote: Which team has Game 2 edge? | Chat: Keith Law on World Series, 1 ET
Bob Gibson once struck out 17 batters to beat a 31-game winner. Sandy Koufax once pitched a shutout on two days' rest. And Don Larsen had a nice start of his own. But we're guessing most of you don't have perfect recall of those gems. Christy Mathewson pitched three shutouts in six days to win the 1905 World Series, but if you watched that effort with the same eyes that are reading this, well, kudos to you, sir or madam.
For most of us, Cliff Lee's complete-game, 10-strikeout shutout in Game 1 of the World Series -- at Yankee Stadium against the team that led the sport in runs scored this season -- was a standard of pitching rarely seen with our own eyes.
So while we're not asking you to break out the Ken Burns DVD and rate it against the best performances in the history of the sport, was Lee's win the best you've ever seen?
“cliff lee is like a dentist performing a root canal on the yankees...
” -- jgc711
“Lee's performance in this game was no different than his performance in any other game this post-season. ... No, this was not the best game of his career and if you listened to him afterwards it was just like any other game to him. The guy is a rock and doesn't know the word fear.
” -- loupinconnu
We didn't plan on starting with one-on-one debates two days in a row, but then again, the Diamondbacks probably didn't plan on looking like a Double-A team against Cliff Lee last night (although Arizona fans forced to endure this season might tell us that's an upgrade).
Lee has been sensational in his first four starts for the team, running up a 4-0 record and 0.82 ERA and leading to inevitable comparisons with last season's big-ticket pitching acquisition, CC Sabathia. But that's not necessarily the comparison on our mind.
- Cliff Lee: 11-9, 2.72 ERA, 185 IP, 141 K, 39 BB, 5 CG (overall)
- Tim Lincecum: 12-3, 2.37 ERA, 178.1 IP, 207 K, 46 BB, 4 CG
The National League has a unique situation on its hands with both reigning Cy Young winners in its ranks and in the pennant race. SportsNation voters have been pretty clear that they expect Lincecum to make it two awards in a row, and given his late arrival, Lee's not going to change that.
But if it came down to one big game, which pitcher are you handing the ball to?
“Notice anything funny lately? Cliff Lee is 4-0 and nobody in Philadelphia seems to even remember who Roy Halladay is.
” -- tcf098
“I think it has more to do with the teams just ain't familiar with Lee. I think the same with Happ, too. I mean, don't get me wrong - they both have outstanding stuff. I just think the inexperience of the other teams with Happ and Lee is giving other teams' fits. I wonder, though, if Lee will end up being like Sabathia in the playoffs.
” -- this_is_chris
On July 27, 2007, the Indians sent Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco to Triple-A Buffalo. Two years and two days later, Lee and Francisco once again found themselves leaving one of our most miserable cities for another (we kid because Philadelphians are renowned for their self-effacing sense of humor; we're sure the Liberty Bell is well worth the trip, really).
When he woke up Wednesday morning, Lee could probably have walked down the streets of any major American city that didn't border Lake Erie and gone unrecognized. All right, Lee could probably still do that this morning, but overnight, the lefty became the powerbroker of record in the National League, and possibly the entire sport. Not bad for a guy who was barely still a prospect himself, let alone worth a bunch of them, when the Indians sent him down two years ago after a 5-8. 6.38 ERA start to the season.
As we recounted yesterday, less than a quarter of SportsNation thought the Phillies could win the National League if they didn't add either Lee or Roy Halladay. Now that they added the pitcher voters ranked No. 8 in the game (seven spots behind Halladay but one spot ahead of new teammate Cole Hamels), more than quarter of voters think the Phillies are the best team in baseball.
So what about the National League race?
- Cardinals getting Matt Holliday was almost as big a move as Phillies getting Lee.
- More than half of the Nation thinks Dodgers need to make some kind of move.
- Voters like the top of the Giants rotation more than Cardinals or Dodgers.
- Rank baseball's best starting pitchers | Vote on the Phillies' fate.
- Groups: Dodgers Fan Club | St. Louis Cardinals Nation. | Philly Phans For Life!!!
“Lee Isnt The Only Good Thing.. They Got Ben Fransisco. Who Can Play All Outfield And Is Speed On The Bases. All He Needs Is Some Work On Discipline And The Phillies Will Have A Great Bench. With All This Talent, The Phillies Are Proned To At Least Make The NLCS. I Wouldn't Put Them Back In The World Series. Just Yet, Until They Get Another Strikeout Reliever.
” -- KidSox1
“This was a horrible move for Cleveland. I'm upset that they didn't get one major league prospect worth anything. Carrasco with an ERA over 5.00 and a WHIP of 1.36 in AAA? Are you kidding? Marson, who is also underwhelming and completely useless with Santana waiting in the wings? Donald, who won't even sniff the bigs with LaPorta and Brantley coming up? Horrible trade on all accounts with Knapp still at least 2 years away from the bigs.
” -- thirdsaint
“poor Cliff Lee. He is going in with the highest of expectations in a bad ballpart for his style of pitching. He will get eaten alive.
” -- pandanwh
Well, that was fast.
“This is a smart move by the Phillies. They find themselves searching for another arm to improve their rotation and solidify themselves as a NL powerhouse, and with Lee they accomplish both. It is true, Lee is not Doc Holliday, but as a supplemental talent, Lee will provide the shot in the arm necessary. In getting Cliff Lee, they gave up less and get a year and a half of upper-tier talent.
” -- staticfish
“The problem is not Shapiro or Wedge. It's Larry Dolan who isn't willing to be a buyer in the market. At least Dan Gilbert gets it that you have to spend money to get a winner. Until we get an owner that realizes that, the Indians will still look to recapture the "lightning in a bottle" method of getting guys before they turn into stars and locking them into longer term deals.
” -- jwindle1975
“This will make the Phillies extremely dangerous, but you have to question having that many finesse pitchers in your rotation. They almost completely rely on the umpire's strike zone. If the ump isn't giving them the corner strikes, they lose almost all effectiveness.
” -- tybae40
J.P. Ricciardi has another day or two to decide if he wants to keep his ace or be flush with prospects, but for its part, SportsNation isn't sure if the Jays' general manager is Austin Powers or Mike McDermott at the table (come to think of it, among Hollywood card players, John Turturro might be a better fit for the Ricciardi role).
Voters ranked Ricciardi a tepid No. 19 in their GM Power Rankings. That's not Omar Minaya territory or anything quite so disastrous, but it's way down the ladder from the affection SportsNation showed Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. at No. 6. And Amaro is very much in the high-stakes game of dealing for a stud pitcher at the deadline.
Perhaps it's a bluff designed to make Ricciardi nervous, but the Phillies seemed to have turned their attention to Indians ace Cliff Lee after finding the price for Roy Halladay prohibitive. Voters in Pennsylvania remain convinced the Phillies will land either Lee or Halladay, but the rest of the country isn't so sure a deal will get done. Not that many outside Red Sox Nation are convinced the Phillies can't win without a big addition.
Edit: We knew Amaro was a big SportsNation blog fan, but that was an impressive turnaround. We post; he reportedly trades. We feel heady with power).
- 54 percent of voters think Phillies are NL favorites with Halladay.
- 43 percent of voters think Phillies are NL favorites with Lee.
- 21 percent of voters think Phillies are NL favorites without either.
- A Phillies fan, blogger Anthony_Fani hears the talk about keeping the farm system stocked and can't help but think of names like Tyler Green, Brandon Duckworth and Adam Eaton. With a core already in place, he says it's time to stick to winning now.
- Groups: Die Hard Phillies Phans | Displaced Philly Fans | Cleveland Indians Fans
“If the contenders lowball Shapiro, Lee will finish the season in Cleveland. They should have learned their lesson last year. Sabathia's price tag should have included Mat Gamel. The Brewers got away with sending a mediocre LHP with no future in Jackson, damaged goods in Bryson, and two guys that were at least a season away from being big league talent. The Indians will (should) walk away from anyone trying to get Lee at a discount. The worst case scenario is that they deal him at deadline time next year.
” -- Ghostsof1948
“I don't understand alot of this talk...the only reason we would trade Lee is because we won't pay him after next year....if he is looking for Sabathia or even Zambrano money i think we should get the most that we can for him...i would hold out like Toronto for the best players teams have! We hold all the cards, lee is signed through next year, so we are in no pressure mode.
” -- robytooj
“if were (the phillies) so worried about not getting rid of drabek then why dont we have him in our rotation already? I mean if were so worried about not dealing him then why aren't we using him since our pitching hasn't been great this year and everyone keeps landing on the dl. i say put him in the deal and lets get hallady who we all know will dominate
” -- mblakes03
SportsNation isn't buying Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi's July 28 trade deadline (apparently, neither is he), but voters are still basically split 50-50 when it comes to the probability of any deal at all involving Roy Halladay. And if neither Halladay nor Indians ace Cliff Lee files a change-of-address form before August, there likely won't be any additions this year to Jerry Crasnick's list of the most noteworthy trades involving aces since 2000.
It's difficult to establish a firm grading process for these deals. The Diamondbacks didn't benefit in the short term when they traded for Curt Schilling in the middle of the 2000 season, but they won the World Series the next season with him. And it's not like they ever really missed Travis Lee, Vicente Padilla or Omar Daal. The Brewers didn't win it all with CC Sabathia last season, but they got a summer's worth of pennant race, and quite possibly a playoff berth, because of the big guy. That's a good deal, right?
In the end, it's probably safe to say that if you make a trade and no longer have a franchise in a few years (hello, Montreal!), you probably weren't the winner in the deal. Beyond that, it's a matter of debate. And that's what we live for.
- Most fans say they'd rather keep their prospects than add a pitcher.
- But if Victor Martinez was really offered, Sox should have traded Clay Buchholz.
- Massachusetts dissents, but Adam LaRoche doesn't qualify as a big trade.
- Rangers wouldn't be favorites with Halladay, but they'd be in the mix.
- On the other hand, Phillies would be heavy favorite with Halladay.
“I hate the Red Sox, but getting Beckett and Lowel was as good as when they got Doug Mientkiewicz and Orlando Cabrera. I knew then The Yankees wouldn't be going to the World Series that year.
” -- gillie108
“Giving the Twins and Bill Smith a "D" for the Santana trade is charitable, to say the least. You don't have to look any further than the GM role to see why the Twins have gone from perennial contenders to irrelevance in such a short span of time. Terry Ryan was one of the best GMs in baseball; so far, Bill Smith appears to be one of the worst.
” -- berberage
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